Discussions

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/timmy-reaves-finger-severed-brandon-school-division-1.3461213  
 
Brandon dad seeks answers from school division after son's finger severed in class....  
 
What are your thoughts on this?  
 
 
 
 
Edited by Kellye, 2016-02-24 12:51:55

He wants to discuss a monetary settlement? Really??  
 
There are always risks in these classes and the teacher cannot supervise everybody at once. Unless there was negligence by the teacher or division, I don't think any monetary settlement should be discussed.

Question - What can be done to insure no one ever gets hurt in shop class again?  
 
Answer - Cancel shop class

I don't know what they are looking for. This is only one side of the story also. It is apparent the teacher knew something was wrong and ordered the child to stop. I guess it boils down to the father is looking for money now for his child's finger. I like the "if it was a workplace" well that is why we pay insurance premiums. I don't think the school pays WCB for students. Where is the child's insurance that the parents would have signed up for. As for comments of wearing gloves or not. If they are proper gloves there should be no issues. I know many places that wear gloves to prevent splinters and such. My question I would want to know is why was the child's hand that close to the blade?

with all of the above posts. However, I do think that the superintendant could take an hour out of her schedule to meet with the family. I'm not saying she has to promise him a rose garden, simply meet with them, sympathize with them, and say that the division will look into the incident.

It's been a really really long time since I took shop about 18 years or so, but I remember that before we were ever allowed to touch the machines we were walked around the shop and each one was explained to us, after that we were to make a safety book outlining what the various components of these machines were and where the danger areas and such were. I remember not being allowed to wear any loose clothes or jewelry either. We had googles and push sticks and the whole nine yards in regards to safety.  
If that was 18 years ago surely it's become even more strict since that time.  
I'm not sure what compensation he's looking to receive, the school division already said they'd pay the cost of the ambulance and the idea behind workers comp is to compensate someone who was injured at work and is now no longer able to do their job leaving them without income. Perhaps this needs to be a live, learn, and be happy you still have a hand kind of lesson.

POLICY 7007  
STUDENT INSURANCE PROGRAM  
Adopted: 71/2000  
Policy 7007  
Student Insurance Program Page 1 of 1  
BRANDON SCHOOL DIVISION  
POLICY  
 
The Brandon School Division is not responsible for the provision of medical expense, dental, disability, dismemberment or accidental death insurance coverage on behalf of students participating in school activities. This is a parental responsibility and the Board of Trustees recommends that parents of students who participate in co-curricular activities and extended outdoor education programs purchase student accident insurance. This coverage shall not be a mandatory requirement for participation. The Board shall endeavor to make available to parents a Student Accident Insurance Plan.  
Notwithstanding the foregoing, for all school-sponsored trips within or outside Manitoba the Board strongly recommends that Student Accident Insurance be obtained by the parents of participating students.  
For out-of-province school-sponsored trips, the Board requires that Special Travel Health coverage available through the Division’s Insurance Broker be obtained by the school. This coverage shall be a condition of final approval of the trip.

i do think the superintendent should have reached out first and talked to the family, how else are they working on finding out what happened? only after they find out what happened will they find out if the school acted negligently and see if a monetary settlement is in order  
 
im sure just like our house insurance covers someone who falls and breaks a leg on my property, school insurance would cover similar things, this boy had lost a finger and altho is manageable will limit him a bit and probably cause some issues his whole life, so if it turns out the school was negligent then he does deserve compensation and the school does need to address how they handle these issues, which also seems to be a big part of the issue with the dad  
 

I found the comment on the CBC site from an ex shop teacher to be very relevant. He said that in his class kids that age didn't use power tools. When the older kids did, they would never be allowed to wear loose clothing, jewelry or gloves. It would seem that either something is missing in the BSD policies, or they weren't being followed.

both go a long way. If the Superintendent would have reached out, made a call, and had a meeting with the parents when this unfortunate accident first occurred, compensation may never have entered into the conversation. As a parent this is a huge deal, this is the loss of your child's finger. As well as the physical pain there is a very large emotional component involved for the whole family. Perhaps, as time passed without even a call from Donna Michaels, feelings were hurt and emotions ran high. A meeting was/is the least she could do.

You only wear gloves when they protect your hands! If the glove can't stop the machinery from doing damage, DON'T WEAR THE GLOVES! Its more a hazard at the point where it could easily be snagged and drawn in. Sad to see neither the boy's father or shop teacher gave this lesson.

so maybe the school doesnt have insurance to cover accidents like i thought they would, i do wonder if the policies were not being followed by the shop teacher if the school would still be liable?  
 
i agree with the above posters recount by a shop teacher saying that gloves wouldn't be wise, question is why was the kid wearing them and did it follow policy?

My thoughts as well were with the glove thing. Who was making sure hands were free of gloves, jewellery, etc.?  
 
Are there certain types of gloves typically worn in this shop scenario? I know nothing about that kind of stuff.  
 
I don't know this family whatsoever, but I hope the young guy heals quickly and yes, a call from the division to to family might have been a communicative touch.

Isn't this what the insurance forms that come home at the beginning of every school year are for? Do they not (I know we got them every year) encourage parents to buy insurance from an insurance company at a smaller rate to protect the family and have coverage in these incidents? I'm pretty sure we signed waivers acknowledging that the school is not liable for these type of accidents. Hence why they encouraged parents to buy insurance. I am glad that they offered to cover the ambulance fee. But above that I believe it is parental responsibility.  
 
Also both of my children completed shop at this school, and the teachers were amazing. They were very schooled in safety. Thoughts are also with the teacher that went through this as well. Accidents happen, and it would be hard to know it happened on your watch. And for the gloves, no the child should not have been wearing gloves. Perhaps he put them on and that is why the teacher was signalling him to shut it down. We are only hearing one side. Perhaps the child was goofing around, we just don't know right now.  
 
Yes it would be nice if the superintendent sat down with this and talked with them to let them know that they will do everything to make sure no one else has to suffer the same thing and they will make sure their safety measures are up to code. But other than that, I don't believe this family is owed much more.  
And the fact that they are talking monetary in the future just leads me to believe that, that is all they are really looking for, not reassurance for safety for others. But I hope I am wrong.  
 
Please read those insurance forms parents and seriously consider the what ifs. That's why those forms are available and encouraged.  
 
 
**Just talked to my son, that attended this class at that school a couple years ago. He said that the teacher wouldn't even let them in the room if they had gloves on. He said he tried to wear them once as he didn't like the feel of the wood. He was stopped immediately. He also stated that the teacher was very cautious and about safety. If you weren't listening to his safety speech you were to stand in another part of room until you were actually ready to listen. You had to copy his safety instructions, copy him, do demonstrations, etc. He said by the time you actually use a machine you should know that machine inside and out, and know exactly what and how it would hurt you.  
Just thought I'd add what a past student said about the course.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Cheezies, 2016-02-24 14:51:28

Accidents happen. Unfortunately when things like this happen and parents cause a huge deal then it puts programs like this at risk.  
 
Just my 2 cents

I question why the school super? Why not the shop teacher?

Fishin Guy said "I question why the school super? Why not the shop teacher? "

I agree. If its just about answers it should be the shop teacher. But I think this is more about wanting money, hence why you go to the head of the school.

I heard on the radio that part of the issue is that the family wants compensation for the ambulance ride. I would assume they don't have insurance that covers it.  
 
That seems reasonable to me.

Abbysmum said "I heard on the radio that part of the issue is that the family wants compensation for the ambulance ride. I would assume they don't have insurance that covers it.     That seems reasonable to me. "

Says in the article that the school offered to pay for the ambulance. So no that wouldn't be what this is about. "Reaves said the school has offered to cover the ambulance bill, but he wants more of a commitment".  
 
 
 
Edited by Cheezies, 2016-02-24 14:55:10

Abbysmum said "I heard on the radio that part of the issue is that the family wants compensation for the ambulance ride. I would assume they don't have insurance that covers it.     That seems reasonable to me. "

If you read the article, the school is paying for the ambulance bill.

The one article I read was that the student reached for the kill switch.  
 
Why did the student not use the regular power switch? The kill switch is used to stop further injury in an emergency whereas the regular power switch would be located farther way from the danger. Why did he reach towards the dangerous blade if there was a safer option to turning off the machine?  
 
The student was not following proper procedure is what I gathered from the information in that article. I am reading the Harry Potter series and picture Draco not following Hagrid's instruction and getting injured by the Buckbeak.  
 
Edited by katwalk1909, 2016-02-24 14:56:58

katwalk1909 said "The one article I read was that the student reached for the kill switch.     Why did the student not use the regular power switch? The kill switch is used to stop further injury in an emergency whereas the regular power switch would be located farther way from the danger. Why did he reach towards the dangerous blade if there was a safer option to turning off the machine?     The student was not following proper procedure is what I gathered from the information in that article. I am reading the Harry Potter series and picture Draco not following Hagrid's instruction and getting injured by the Buckbeak.     Edited by katwalk1909, 2016-02-24 14:56:58"

The student is 13. Maybe or maybe not had he been around this machinery before. That's not for us to say.  
 
Too many variables. We don't know about shop instruction that was given, then who was paying attention.  
 
That's why the Dad wanted to get some answers so it doesn't happen to another student, I gather.  
 

It really is unfortunate that something like this has happened to a child, But I know from experience that the amount of safety precautions that are taken and the training and information provided to all shop students is incredible. kids are trained on every piece of equipment in the shops program, they are told of all the risks, The instructors are usually fantastic in making sure kids are being safe and not goofing around, when it comes to the machines and tools in shops teachers are as serious as a heart attack, unfortunately sometimes bad things happen. but as far as safety goes in the Brandon School Division it is my understanding they are very proficient in that regard.

Bubblewrap our kids either either put them in home-ec (if the still is such a thing being a p-c society) or do away with shop class. When I took shop we used all the woodworking power tools. My wife said when she was in home-ec she got a burn on the oven and piece of sewing machine needle in the eye. It isn't losing a finger but still... Should we NEED warning labels on absolutely everything these days? No. But that's how it is in a litigious society where people take no responsibility for their actions- it's always someone else's fault.

Its defiantly a crappy situation all around and unfortunate. Its also really sad that the superintendent doesn't seem to care.  
 
But having said that a monetary settlement is kind of ridiculous and uncalled for. The kid is not losing any money as he is not getting paid to attend this class and the ambulance bill is being paid for by the division, so why is a monetary settlement necessary?  
 

Back in the day when I to home EC I would get burned my grease from what we were cooking and left a noticeable nasty scar. I know that it doesn't come close to losing a finger but it was a danger that we were taught about. I basically ran my arm under cold water for a bit and it was done. I also knew a few kids who didn't listen to the teacher and not wear oven mitts, because they were to busy chatting to friends then to listen. Could this been one of those times???

I'm not sure about the program at Harrison, but our experience (last year) at Oxford they have the jointer as one of the mandatory pieces of equipment that the grade 8 students must use. They are told/shown the safety rules (which includes NO gloves) and are tested. If they fail the test they have to keep doing the test until they pass. They used pushers on the jointer,and the safety shield was in place. Depending on the equipment used there was 1 on 1 supervision or 2 students. As a parent I'd say that is a reasonable amount of safety measures put in place by BSD.  
 
That being said I think that it should be looked into as to why gloves were being worn. That is a big red flag. I think by covering the ambulance bill the BSD went above & beyond what they needed to pay for. It is the parent's responsibility to fill out that insurance form at the beginning of the school year that covers accidents. I feel bad for the kid.

It is unfortunate. On the money side of things I think what the Dad is getting at that anyone that loses a finger at work will get a payout from wcb. A finger won't be worth a huge amount few thousand likely but better than nothing. A valid point I would say. Seems like some type of accident insurance might be a decent idea going forward.

They should check out their personal insurance policies.

All about money. What about the kids that have broken bones/ fractures etc playing sports at school ?  
where does the line stop ? do we take pens and pencils away just in case they stab themselves.  
Do we shut the schools down and home school so there s no liability on others that are trying to taech the kids ?  
Whats next suing vehicle companys because I shut my hand in the door lol.  
 
Roads are bad enough in Brandon we dont need ambulance chasers adding to it