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So if it could be proven,that as an adult, you had let your immunity lapse after being presented with the science that certain vaccines have a limited time frame, you would have not problem with contributing to the treatment of someone who becomes ill.  
I'll go with a simpler example. As an individual you do not get the flu shot, and you go to work suffering from a certain strain of flu that has a vaccine available for it. Now flu bugs affects people differently, and at times there are fatalities from the flu, if someone at your work were to get extremely sick and require a hospital stay, and co workers said that you were the one who brought the bug to work, you would be ok with paying for medical treatment.

It would be a slippery slope but the flu is nothing compared to the "childhood diseases" I was thinking about.  
 
I feel sorry for those that lose their children, as the one in Manitoba did not long ago. That is probably the worst "punishment" they can receive.

The sad thing is that sometimes it is the innocent that pay, if people ignore the science and rufuse to get their kids vaccinated the chances are it will be their child that sufferes not them, and I guess in my books that is being irresponsible as a parent. The thing about many of these diseases is the results of a bad decision can happen pretty quick, and in the case of infants the progression of a disease can be very rapid, but what about the many other things, that as adults we do that can affect our children's health later on in life. We have laws which make it illegal to smoke with our children in a vehicle (good law as far as I'm concerned), but then the family gets out of the car walks into the house and have parents smoke, or what about proper nutrition for kids, and I'm not talking only of junk food but proper nutrition as far as ordinary diet goes.  
There is a reality that we must face, are we going to be a nanny society or not, at the present time I'm in the (not) camp.

Don:  
 
There has been some excellent information and very thoughtful analysis provided in this discussion of the various points you have raised, and in my view, all your concerns have been discounted.  The last you have held onto is the concern over aluminum.   
 
You should know that aluminum is one of the most common elements in the crust of the earth, making up some 8%.  Aluminum is the main component of clay, and many other common things.  According to Wikipedia, it isn't essential in the metabolism of plants and animals, but probably due to it's ubiquity, is very well tolerated.   
 
So, you are hanging your hat, and one would assume others in the anti-vaccine community are as well, on the alleged dangers of aluminum.  Consider that aluminum compounds are the active ingredients in antiperspirants, and that alum, potassium aluminum sulfate, is a common food additive, well known for making pickles crunchy, and used in some baking powders, etc, etc.  
 
So, it has to be asked, what is your point? A microscopic amount of aluminum in a proven injection troubles you to the degree that you and others would prefer to endanger the general public health, and invite us back to a world of plagues and death by unchecked infectious diseases. If you have ever eaten a dill pickle, or a biscuit, or used an antiperspirant you have no point fretting over micrograms of aluminum.  
 
I see a pattern - one of retreat in the face of overwhelming evidence and reason, much like the scientific process that has given us all the tremendous advances of the last century.  
 
As pointed out, public health isn't a question of personal choice or preferences, or a "nanny state", take for example water sanitation. You certainly can drink dirty water, if for some ill thought out reason you believe that makes you stronger, but don't subject your children or others to contaminated water, obviously that's approaching criminality. I feel it is the same to risk my children, and my community by spreading preventable diseases, unacceptable, and with more public awareness, should be considered as public endangerment. Some might be aware of the negative connotation of typhoid Mary... The "nanny state" finally put her in jail to stop the people around her from dying.  
 
In a way, challenges of conventional thinking are the backbone of scientific progress, but on this issue, the totality of evidence and reason has simply crushed the case you support.  
 
As I had proposed originally, numbers of people who have made concerted, and I would suggest, conceited efforts of willing ignorance, pose a greater danger to public safety than many recognized threats. Worse, these people often serve to support and encourage each other in their endangerment of their children, and innocent bystanders.  

In Don's defense, I don't think he ever even mentioned aluminum, and has stated he supports vaccines....

Thanks Enfrye, I got tired and went to bed. I know I'm opinionated and do say a lot but some things I know I didn't say.  
 
Hope the above comment was not the result of someone looking at their own vaccination history, then looking at the science of actual immunity and realizing that maybe they had come up short themselves.  
 
As discussions go on usually the scope of the topic expands, and when looking at something like vaccination programs, and the objective of those programs, one has to look at so much. Over the years I have realized that our vaccination programs do have shortfall, and many of us are ignorant of those shortfalls, or even once we are aware of them we choose to do nothing.  
 

Unfortunately, it will take an anti-vaxxer's child to contract a disease like measles (which is on the rise thanks to anti-vaxxers) for them to change their mind. You can throw all the scientific proof you want at them but the bottom line is that they care more about their own ignorant opinion than they do about preventing their own children from contracting a harmful and potentially fatal disease.  
 
Edited by aniqbee, 2016-04-01 07:27:40

My apologies Don. It was Rum who was clinging to the indefensible allegations of "dangerous" ingredients in vaccines, completely drummed out the door by the avalanche of common sense observations, and the preponderance of evidence.  
 
You instead have clung to the indefensible notions of undefined, theoretical safety issues, in absolute conflict with all the above.  
 
I noticed that you have nothing to say regarding what I outlined as the pivotal importance of our public health efforts and direction. Further, none of the wise individuals from the "pro anti-science, anti public health camp' have any comments on why our cemeteries are no longer filled with the graves of children, and why most families haven't had to bury a child in generations.  
 
To take such an irresponsible position so far outside the realm of common sense demands that your ilk step up to the plate, and provide believable, credible reasoning and evidence for your dangerous and unbelievable claims.  
 
I haven't heard it, or seen any semblance.  
 
Folks like yourselves are dangerous. What is the difference between your behavior relative the public safety, and taking random rifle shots across school playgrounds? The consequences are identical.  
 
I only wish we could have a plague island for such idealists, where they could test their unvaccinated immune systems, protected by homeopathy, or superior nutrition, or fighting aids with beet juice, as was suggested by the south African president. An island where smallpox, Ebola, diptheria and typhoid, measles and whooping cough could test such idiocy in the time honoured ways of our ancestors.

One question, did you read the link I provide about what was in vaccines, this link is from a pro vaccine stance providing people with the facts. If you have not read the link, please do so, and read all of the information provided, not just on the ingredients.  
 
After you read the link could you please let me know, and we'll discuss undefendabl ideas.  
 
Edited by don brown, 2016-04-01 11:16:53

don brown said "http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm "

The levels of the listed chemicals are well within the amount our bodies can tolerate, in fact some occur naturally in our bodies in larger concentrations and are also necessary to cell function.  
 
http://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/understanding-vaccines/goes-vaccine/  
 
 
 
Edited by Cee Jay 55, 2016-04-01 12:12:42

Yep, I have no problems with the the chemicals that are used in vaccines, if allergic reaction do occur they more than likely occur because of proteins.  
I usually don't bother with links because most people don't take the time to read them, and this can be proven by the link on what is in vaccines. I had stated that reporting of reaction doesn't happen, but once a person gets past the agents that are in vaccines in the link,they go on to say about reactions and how to report them, and a phone number was even given, so I was sort of waiting to get called on that. Peole are trying to say there are no reactions, but that is just not true.  
I'll post another link, and once again by basically a medical site that is pro vaccine and if the whole link is read, one can see how many of us are not properly vaccinate as well as some of the reactions.  
Not really fear mongering, l but sort of factual.  
 
http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/tdap-vaccine-for-adults  
 
Edited by don brown, 2016-04-01 12:54:10

don brown said "One question, did you read the link I provide about what was in vaccines, this link is from a pro vaccine stance providing people with the facts. If you have not read the link, please do so, and read all of the information provided, not just on the ingredients.     After you read the link could you please let me know, and we'll discuss undefendabl ideas.     Edited by don brown, 2016-04-01 11:16:53"

It is good to try to reverse the onus, however, it falls to the person making claims that on their face defy logic or empirical evidence, or the scientific consensus to make their case.  
 
That has been the path of our scientific and health revolution, and the previously unimagined benefits that has brought us all.  
 
Otherwise the discussion tends to take on the quality of discussing leprechauns with the true believers, there's always some weak and pathetic point they will try to raise to defend the dignity of their ill conceived notions.  
 
As has been pointed out by a previous poster, it would be impossible to suppress data of any public health harm due to vaccines.  
 
So, the floor is yours, please bring this credible information out for discussion.  
 
I contend that I have heard none to date and given the overwhelming empirical proof, expect none.

Read the link just presented. Pro vaccination but with much information on reactions, which apparently in you opinion don't exist.

Abby :) said "What happens when the child of an anti-vaxxer develops an illness that they have declined to be immunized against? Are they going to expect the health care system to absorb the costs of the medical treatment required as a result of their decision? In my opinion, if they choose not to vaccinate then it should be the parent's responsibility to pay the expenses which occur as a result. The financial impact should not be passed on to everyone else. "

Hopefully this doesnt derail the OP, but I had to weigh in on this.  
 
No, you are 100% wrong here. The medical system and health care we have in place is to take care of those that need help. We all pay for it, and we all use it.  
 
Using your logic, if a person were to get in a car crash and lets assume its their fault. Why should the taxes I have paid, and contributed to the health care go to help them? Just because in this case they were careless and got hurt, why should I pay?  
 
Do you know, the above argument I just wrote (which is the same as yours) is right bang on the attitude of Americans? We have friends who have a nephew who is undergoing cancer treatment, and we had a long talk about the troubles they have had, the costs etc. When I outright asked him "Wouldnt it be nicer if you paid a bit more tax and got health care like in Canada, so you wouldnt have to pay so much now?" His answer was simple. "Why should I pay for someone elses problems?" He couldnt see how in his case, his nephew would have been taken care of with minimal costs.  
 
Like I said, we all pay taxes, we all recieve the same care when we need it. (And if Canada decides to drop this attitude perfect, the beer I buy will go from $48 a case to about $18....bring it on lol)

don brown said "Yep, I have no problems with the the chemicals that are used in vaccines, if allergic reaction do occur they more than likely occur because of proteins.   I usually don't bother with links because most people don't take the time to read them, and this can be proven by the link on what is in vaccines. I had stated that reporting of reaction doesn't happen, but once a person gets past the agents that are in vaccines in the link,they go on to say about reactions and how to report them, and a phone number was even given, so I was sort of waiting to get called on that. Peole are trying to say there are no reactions, but that is just not true.   I'll post another link, and once again by basically a medical site that is pro vaccine and if the whole link is read, one can see how many of us are not properly vaccinate as well as some of the reactions.   Not really fear mongering, l but sort of factual.     http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/tdap-vaccine-for-adults     Edited by don brown, 2016-04-01 12:54:10"

I have not read anyone saying that there is "no reaction" - there are minor reactions but almost never life-threatening or that cause long term disability.  
 
Many people mistakenly believe the vaccine "gave them the disease it was supposed to prevent". Hardly. That reaction is your body going into "defense" mode against the impotent viral proteins that were injected into your muscle (not directly into your blood). You are not injected with the virus as I have heard from many people: you are injected with "dead" viral proteins that cause an immune response in your body. I know you did not put this idea forward but I covered it anyway.  
 
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/parents-guide/parents-guide-part4.html  
 
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/measles-outbreak/7-vaccine-myths-debunked-doctors-n303211  
 
 
..measles kills more than 140,000 people a year globally, according to the World Health Organization. And WHO estimates that measles vaccines save 1 million lives a year.  
 
In contrast, just 57 claims of deaths due to measles vaccines have been filed through the federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, a no-fault system set up to compensate people injured by vaccines. The program doesn't say how many of those claims were actually allowed.  
 
"Here is one single vaccine that prevents more than a million deaths every year," Salmon said.  
 
Notice it states "claimed" - as in "not proven".  
 
Would you stop driving your car or riding your bicycle if you knew the chances of getting killed are GREATER than your chances of dying from a vaccine?  
 
 
 
Edited by Cee Jay 55, 2016-04-01 13:32:48

Thanks to those of you who offered their comments in response to my post regarding the financial impact of choosing not to vaccinate. You have raised some very valid points and offered a few perspectives I had not considered. I think the many aspects discussed in this thread may prove quite helpful to those who are contemplating whether or not to immunize and hopefully encourage them to educate themselves further to make a decision they are confident in.  
 
Edited by Abby :), 2016-04-01 15:41:59

don brown said "Read the link just presented. Pro vaccination but with much information on reactions, which apparently in you opinion don't exist. "

Sorry Don, I just have no enthusiasm for hunting leprechauns. If you find one, please present it for public consideration. Anecdotal reports won't do.  
 
As was already mentioned in response to your comment, nobody is saying there are no reactions to vaccines. I often end up with a sore shoulder. Sometimes people experience headaches, or slight fever. All of which are very good signs, that the body is mounting a proper immune response, and should be prepared to fend off the infection if ever called on. The trade off is so one sided, dead children, or not, it doesn't bear much debate, unless you can come up with something revolutionary.  
 
If you purport significant negative health effects, support the claim. Considering the overwhelming evidence, the effective eradication of infectious diseases (until complacent, or absurdly misinformed parents grew in number), and the absence of your purported, or maybe you mean theoretical, harm, you seem to have no legitimate case to present.

Why is it so important that everybody gets them? If I am vaccinated does it not protect me from the disease regardless if there are those around me that aren't vaccinated?

Do you consider yourself an extremist, I sort of do, statements like get vaccinated or die sort of fall on deaf ears at times, especially when you are talking to a person who has had measles, mumps, and chickenpox, as did my brother, sister, parents and grandparents,  
At least Cee Jay allowed me the option of a choice when asking about whether I would ride in a vehicle when looking at risk. But as for yourself you wish to take the choice away from people. I believe that we would have a very high rate of vaccinations in the public without making things manditory. We have sort of gotten away from your original idea, which is to make it manditory. Like mentioned earlier, if you don't vaccinate your children there may be a price to pay, and maybe that choice is something parents should be deciding. We all know the effects that sugar has on people so maybe when we are being so concerned about others well being, we should also ban all soft drinks, or any food source that is not natural and contains sugar.  
 
If we are going to make it mandatory, let's not just talk of kindergarten, let's talk of everyone in society because science has proven that immunity can lapse, and if we want to take away parents choice, let's take away everyone's choice, because this debate is not really about vaccines but the right of people to make choices.

volkswagon said "Why is it so important that everybody gets them? If I am vaccinated does it not protect me from the disease regardless if there are those around me that aren't vaccinated? "

1 - There are people with compromised immune systems that cannot be vaccinated. They have no resistance to the viruses and if they come into contact with someone who has been infected, they will more than likely become infected as well.  
 
2 - Some are just too young to be vaccinated, they are more effective after certain ages. (Virus specific) Same danger as above.  
 
3 - In areas where a larger group have chosen not to vaccinate, there is the risk of an outbreak as what happened in Manitoba last year with "whooping cough" and there is an outbreak of measles currently in Edmonton.  
 
4 - Viruses mutate. If they are allowed to spread there is a risk that they will mutate and current vaccines will become useless.  
 
I'm sure there are more reason but those are a few that come to mind immediately.  
 
Just because most people are vaccinated it does not mean the disease is not contractible.  
 
Do a quick search and read the PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC DATA.  
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Cee Jay 55, 2016-04-01 20:24:05

volkswagon said "Why is it so important that everybody gets them? If I am vaccinated does it not protect me from the disease regardless if there are those around me that aren't vaccinated? "

There are others who can probably give better answers, and some oft his has been addressed earlier in the thread.  
 
My understanding, and my understanding of the underlying math and probabilities, is the concept of "herd immunity", and the probability of contagion.  
 
In a population, there will always be some people without immunity to a dangerous disease, either due to compromised immune systems, ineffective response to the vaccine, or being a newborn baby, chemotherapy, etc.  
 
Until the magic day that a disease is completely extinct, (as happened with smallpox in the 1970's, and we are close to for polio, but having serious trouble closing the gap), there will always be cases popping up randomly, due to people traveling, etc. If measles, say, is spread at random in a population vaccinated to a level over 90%, the chances of effective transmission drop below likely perpetuation.  
 
Sadly, the vaccination ratesi n north America are now over 70%, due to the types of attitudes some have aired on this thread.  
 
As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, whooping cough, a very vile and deadly disease is back in Manitoba as a result, and a measles outbreak is under way in Edmonton presently. Eventually I fear there will be deaths as a result, a shameful slip backwards.  
 
That's why every person, and every child without a critical health reason otherwise, for the public safety, should get their vaccinations.  
 
Imagine how horrible a person would feel if they learned that the whooping cough or measles they, or their kids transmitted ended up killing others?  
 
Don raised a valid point earlier, pointing out that to be safe, various vaccinations should be boosted in adults, (though he didn't mention that the main reason this is necessary now is because the antivaxxers have so deeply compromised public health)...  
 
Every responsible adult should be making arrangements with public health to be boosted particularly for whooping cough, and anything else they recommend.  
 
And remember to thank the antivaxxers for endangering all our children and grandchildren when doing so.

I do not care if a person chooses to not get vaccinated but when you refuse to vaccinate your children based on some hokum B.S. that you heard or read on the internet without doing proper research, then I have a problem because you are playing Russian Roulette with children's lives.  
 
There are chemicals in vaccines, yes but the amounts are so low that they have no measurable effect on your system whatsoever. You take in larger amounts on a daily basis of most of them. They do not compound either, your body will metabolize, utilize, or dispose of them normally.  
 
There are reactions to vaccines but in most cases it generally amounts to a slight fever, a sore spot where the shot was administered, or a slight reaction similar to the full-blown virus but in a tolerable amount.  
 
There is SO much overwhelming evidence to support vaccinating and almost NONE to support NOT vaccinating. Most of the "evidence" online for not vaccinating is speculation, supposition, or total B.S. based on anecdotal evidence and hearsay.  
 
Again, read the peer reviewed scientific data and connect the dots.  
 
Edited by Cee Jay 55, 2016-04-01 20:39:35

Thank you for acknowledging that the problem is larger than just the ant-vax people. In my mind, now we are making progress.  
Abby made the comment that by discussing this and educating people, likely people will make the right decision.  
I sort of take exception to statements that go to the extreme, and the reason for that feeling is people who are trying to make a decision could look at something like a recent outbreak of measles and say, "well nobody died". It doesn't matter if it is religion, politics , or things like having a good and effective vaccination program, extreme comments at times insult people's intelligence, and all I have to do is look at the nonsense posted by anti vaccination people, the real extreme ones don't even talk of choice but talk conspiracy theory and other garbage.  
 
I'm going to answer your original question. Are anti vaccination people more dangerous that drunk drivers? In my opinion they are the same, both have made bad decisions.

your arguments are getting flimsy and foolish, how can you even try to equate eating sugar with getting a measles or small pox vaccination? Sometimes there are very good reasons for making some things mandatory ( Like vaccinations ) There is far more risk down the road from people not getting vaccinated than from mandatory vaccinations. Why would you want to put young pregnant mother's babies at risk with unvaccinated people running around with measles, small pox or polio? And that's what will happen as more and more people refuse to get vaccinations for their kid's because of fear mongering and questionable data from false studies.

M.Y.O.B  

Whatalady said "M.Y.O.B   "

But if someone was running around a schoolyard with a loaded gun, would you still say M.Y.O.B.??? Because that is basically what this is all about: protecting children from preventable danger (in this case - diseases).  
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Cee Jay 55, 2016-04-01 21:08:33

don brown said "Do you consider yourself an extremist, I sort of do, statements like get vaccinated or die sort of fall on deaf ears at times, especially when you are talking to a person who has had measles, mumps, and chickenpox, as did my brother, sister, parents and grandparents,   At least Cee Jay allowed me the option of a choice when asking about whether I would ride in a vehicle when looking at risk. But as for yourself you wish to take the choice away from people. I believe that we would have a very high rate of vaccinations in the public without making things manditory. We have sort of gotten away from your original idea, which is to make it manditory. Like mentioned earlier, if you don't vaccinate your children there may be a price to pay, and maybe that choice is something parents should be deciding. We all know the effects that sugar has on people so maybe when we are being so concerned about others well being, we should also ban all soft drinks, or any food source that is not natural and contains sugar.     If we are going to make it mandatory, let's not just talk of kindergarten, let's talk of everyone in society because science has proven that immunity can lapse, and if we want to take away parents choice, let's take away everyone's choice, because this debate is not really about vaccines but the right of people to make choices. "

Well Don, it is that extreme, in the world prior to vaccines, just generations ago, if you got some diseases, good chance that you would die.  Or linger, horribly crippled.  How quickly it seems that some have forgotten the horror of the iron lung.  A buddy of mine nearly suffocated to death at 6 years of age from whooping cough.  He will never forget that brush with death.  
 
I feel that those who carelessly court such suffering or death for their children or innocent community members when easily preventable by group effort deserve our particular attention and concern.  
 
Sugar is no comparison to some fools who would willingly allow a monster out of a box to randomly kill others in their community.  Eat all the sugar you please.  If you endanger your children, and by the nature of disease, those of all others at the same time, that's a different category.  In society, there is no right to choice for such behaviour, at least without sanctions.  
 
In Australia child tax benefit is withheld without immunization.  I think the point is mostly to serve as a grounds for discussion and social sanction, rather than as some extreme, or punitive measure.  In Alberta going back over a decade, the issue has been deemed serious enough that children are not allowed enrollment in school without up to date immunization.  Apparently you would have us believe Ralph Klein, etc were raving socialists?  
 
I also believe you misinterpreted CeeJay regarding the "personal choice" ethos. It was mentioned that if you risk the lives of passengers, or especially children, that is intolerable. The straw man argument you have constructed doesn't fit this matter of public health.

Like apples and oranges  
Choose what you want!  
You want to vaccinate as much as others  
May not want to!  
Protect yourself if you choose.  
But mandatory....? Not at all a loaded gun!

Whatalady said "Like apples and oranges   Choose what you want!   You want to vaccinate as much as others   May not want to!   Protect yourself if you choose.   But mandatory....? Not at all a loaded gun! "

It IS a loaded gun. Do you understand how contagious diseases spread?  
 
Read this and see what a difference vaccines have made. Pay particular attention to deaths resulting from diseases prior to and after vaccines for each one had been developed and administered.  
 
Your argument is moot and there is nothing to scientifically back up your view.  
 
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/cig-gci/cedv-cemv-tab-eng.php  
 
Edited by Cee Jay 55, 2016-04-01 21:38:23

Still a right to choose.  
If you are vaccinated and you are protected then you should have not a worry of others choice.  
Thank you I still have a choice. Canadian