Discussions

Diogenes said "If austerity means cutting welfare and social programs that help lift citizens from poverty to curtail government debt, then anti-austerity means finding a different solution to government debt that doesn’t i:nclude cutting welfare and social programs. In Manitoba the majority of the working population (or roughly 500,000) earn $34,999 or less annually. In 2014 (the latest statscan data) 53,400 Manitobans were earning $100,000 or more, 4,530 of which were earning over $250,000. The CEO of Manitoba Hydro earns nearly $500,000 a year. If I remember correctly Deborah Poff (BU’s last president) was raking in 400,000 a year. Manitobans earning this much pay the same tax rate as someone earning $67,000. The Manitoba government could introduce a new tax bracket system that taxes the wealth of Manitoba’s wealthiest 1%. Doing so would help reduce Manitoba’s debt without hurting the people that need support the most. Deeping Manitoba’s poverty and cutting programs like Neighbourhoods Alive will only increase crime, drug and alcohol abuse and healthcare costs. In the end, it’ll probably cost more to cut the programs than it does to keep them.     I agree that the BiPole III is a stupid waste of money. If Manitoba Hydro wants to have extra revenue, southwestern Manitoba has a huge potential for solar energy production, and the infrastructure already exists. If BiPole III was scraped and they started up solar farms, they’d already be generating electricity and selling it. The US and Saskatchewan would be quick to buy to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions.     I know many of you conservative eBrandoners like to think that government should operate like a business. But it isn’t a business. The role of government is to provide for the people. I understand we live in a world where money is more valuable than lives, but when the government fails to provide for its most vulnerable people, it’s no longer doing its job.     I’m not defending the NDP. Like I said in the original post, I’m not an NDP supporter. I did not vote for the NDP in the last election. I wish that the people on eBrandon would get over this dichotomy and actually hold the PCs responsible for what they’re doing. There was so much criticism of the NDP from conservatives until the election, and now the PCs are in power and everyone has gone silent. But whenever someone criticizes the PCs the conservatives are so quick to say, “Well, the NDP did this or that”. And when the NDP were in power, it was the PCs to blame for everything that was wrong. We’re never going to get anywhere until the government in power finally takes responsibility for governance. You need to wake up and realize that they, NDP or PC, are all politicians and their number one interest is being in control. They’ll say whatever they think you want to hear to maintain power for as long as possible. Right now it’s, “THE NDP ARE BAD. TIGHTEN YOUR BELTS AND NEVER VOTE FOR THEM AGAIN BECAUSE THEY MADE A BIG MESS AND YOU’RE ALL GOING TO SUFFER BECAUSE OF IT”. Please try to see through to the real issues at hand. Thanks!     Edited by Diogenes, 2016-12-22 15:08:05"

The answer you feel is tax the top 10 % of earners. Some would suggest that government should live within their means like any person or Business. To think that you can borrow your way out of debt seems odd for most of us. There is millions being paid in interest on our debt that could go to a better use.  
 
Last time I checked the more people make the more money they pay in taxes. The more money they make the more most spend and then p[at taxes again on everything they purchase. So are they not paying their fare share? Does the taxes collected not support all of these social programs many that do not work.

Fishin Guy said "Ok Whiskers. What part do you not believe? By all means stop by my office tomorrow and I can easily pull my hours for you. . "

My post were about Pallister talking about how hard he works and people that work hard don't go around talking about it. The conversation was not about you. You sent me a pm a while back saying you worked at Maplle Leaf and did the work of two people and I didn't believe you then and I don't believe you now. Again this was about Pallisters talk about his hard work not you.

yeh, but the Liberals have spent something like 9 billion dollars and none of it really in/for Canada. They have increased the deficit to unprecedented levels in only a year or so. The provincial conservatives are at least trying to balance the budget and buy down the horrific deficit that the NDP left the province with. As others have said - - they can't fix it overnight-it's going to take some hard decisions and more than a few years.

You likely think that truck drivers don't work hard, that heavy equipment operators don't work hard.  
That house wives don't work hard.  
Guess your the only hard working person out there.

You can't stop a train on a dime. The other guys had 20+ years to fudge things up, can't we give Uncle Brian the benefit of the doubt?  
 
It's a huge task. Two things I know for sure are: Everyone loses under a bankrupt province, and when something isn't working, you try anything except what you're currently doing.

Might be a dumb thing to say, but except for a very small percent of the population I just don't think people care. I've heard it said many times that government is a reflection of the population of the people of the country, and in many ways I have to agree with that idea. Political parties are supposed to have ideologies, but from what I've seen is we have political parties that promise to special interests and try to convince us how by benefiting that area we will all benefit.  
Government may not be a business, but uses the idea that it is a business to justify many things that it does, the reason I say that government is not a business is that it produces very little, and circulates money for what they say is in our best interest, but this has led to intrusion in every part of our lives, at at a very high cost.  
The reason I mentioned that government is a reflection of the population of the country come down to the fact that even without government debt, the debt of the average person continues to grow. The cost of servicing this debt comes with a cost, people seem to be able to service their debt, but is resulting in a situation where people believe they are falling behind. The solution is the same for government as the individual, and that is if you can't afford it, maybe rethink it.  
The biggest problem I have with the current provincial government is when you take over the goverence of a province, who is in severe financial problems, you don't increase you wages, reguardless of what a report says.  
My honest opinion is that there is no way to unwind what has happened to our province as well as our country, and the solution won't come from the political sector.

don brown said "Might be a dumb thing to say, but except for a very small percent of the population I just don't think people care. I've heard it said many times that government is a reflection of the population of the people of the country, and in many ways I have to agree with that idea. Political parties are supposed to have ideologies, but from what I've seen is we have political parties that promise to special interests and try to convince us how by benefiting that area we will all benefit.   Government may not be a business, but uses the idea that it is a business to justify many things that it does, the reason I say that government is not a business is that it produces very little, and circulates money for what they say is in our best interest, but this has led to intrusion in every part of our lives, at at a very high cost.   The reason I mentioned that government is a reflection of the population of the country come down to the fact that even without government debt, the debt of the average person continues to grow. The cost of servicing this debt comes with a cost, people seem to be able to service their debt, but is resulting in a situation where people believe they are falling behind. The solution is the same for government as the individual, and that is if you can't afford it, maybe rethink it.   The biggest problem I have with the current provincial government is when you take over the goverence of a province, who is in severe financial problems, you don't increase you wages, reguardless of what a report says.   My honest opinion is that there is no way to unwind what has happened to our province as well as our country, and the solution won't come from the political sector. "

Great post Don. Were do you think the solutions will come from?  
 
I would suggest that sooner or later it is all going to catch up with us both as a province and as individuals. Sooner or later either the lenders of the funds are going to say no to more loans or slow down the flow of funds to support us .  
 
I would suggest the last number or years we have been living like a family living on a line of credit from the bank. Someone is going to have to pay back the debt. It may not be us but it will be the next generation.  
 
The people that will be effected the most are those that rely on government services that are funded by taxes.  
 
As Don indicated most people live for today, are marketed to think that way (so companies can sell their goods and services)and do not want to think of how it will effect them in the future. In many ways we are doing this as a province and country .  
 
Small pain now ( reduced services) may be better than what is will feel like if we continue to kick the can down the road.

Oh Canada said "    Diogenes said "If austerity means cutting welfare and social programs that help lift citizens from poverty to curtail government debt, then anti-austerity means finding a different solution to government debt that doesn’t i:nclude cutting welfare and social programs. In Manitoba the majority of the working population (or roughly 500,000) earn $34,999 or less annually. In 2014 (the latest statscan data) 53,400 Manitobans were earning $100,000 or more, 4,530 of which were earning over $250,000. The CEO of Manitoba Hydro earns nearly $500,000 a year. If I remember correctly Deborah Poff (BU’s last president) was raking in 400,000 a year. Manitobans earning this much pay the same tax rate as someone earning $67,000. The Manitoba government could introduce a new tax bracket system that taxes the wealth of Manitoba’s wealthiest 1%. Doing so would help reduce Manitoba’s debt without hurting the people that need support the most. Deeping Manitoba’s poverty and cutting programs like Neighbourhoods Alive will only increase crime, drug and alcohol abuse and healthcare costs. In the end, it’ll probably cost more to cut the programs than it does to keep them.     I agree that the BiPole III is a stupid waste of money. If Manitoba Hydro wants to have extra revenue, southwestern Manitoba has a huge potential for solar energy production, and the infrastructure already exists. If BiPole III was scraped and they started up solar farms, they’d already be generating electricity and selling it. The US and Saskatchewan would be quick to buy to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions.     I know many of you conservative eBrandoners like to think that government should operate like a business. But it isn’t a business. The role of government is to provide for the people. I understand we live in a world where money is more valuable than lives, but when the government fails to provide for its most vulnerable people, it’s no longer doing its job.     I’m not defending the NDP. Like I said in the original post, I’m not an NDP supporter. I did not vote for the NDP in the last election. I wish that the people on eBrandon would get over this dichotomy and actually hold the PCs responsible for what they’re doing. There was so much criticism of the NDP from conservatives until the election, and now the PCs are in power and everyone has gone silent. But whenever someone criticizes the PCs the conservatives are so quick to say, “Well, the NDP did this or that”. And when the NDP were in power, it was the PCs to blame for everything that was wrong. We’re never going to get anywhere until the government in power finally takes responsibility for governance. You need to wake up and realize that they, NDP or PC, are all politicians and their number one interest is being in control. They’ll say whatever they think you want to hear to maintain power for as long as possible. Right now it’s, “THE NDP ARE BAD. TIGHTEN YOUR BELTS AND NEVER VOTE FOR THEM AGAIN BECAUSE THEY MADE A BIG MESS AND YOU’RE ALL GOING TO SUFFER BECAUSE OF IT”. Please try to see through to the real issues at hand. Thanks!     Edited by Diogenes, 2016-12-22 15:08:05" The answer you feel is tax the top 10 % of earners. Some would suggest that government should live within their means like any person or Business. To think that you can borrow your way out of debt seems odd for most of us. There is millions being paid in interest on our debt that could go to a better use.     Last time I checked the more people make the more money they pay in taxes. The more money they make the more most spend and then p[at taxes again on everything they purchase. So are they not paying their fare share? Does the taxes collected not support all of these social programs many that do not work. "

Sure, Oh Canada, if a program doesn't work, get rid of it. Can you tell me which government programs don't work? Have you talked to the people that are employed by these programs or the people that benefit from them?  
 
This is not about government living within its means. Like I said, a government isn't a business. A business that accrued this amount of debt wouldn't exist. The government is not a person either. In some cases it's a matter of getting food and shelter to the people who can't find work or their jobs don't pay them enough, or programs to "at risk" individuals to keep them from becoming criminals. Manitoba has a massive disparity of wealth. Like I said, about 500,000 Manitobans earn less than $35,000.  
 
Money isn't a possession, though some people treat it like it is, and that leads us to economic hardship when the wealthy hoard it away.  
 
My way of thinking is that, yes, the debt needs to be paid off as quickly as possible, but Manitobans that can afford to pay for it should pay for it. Why should the poorest and most vulnerable people in Manitoba lose their support systems to pay for the mistakes of the government? The government does it because these people have been walked all over their entire life so they don't stand up for themselves. When you try to tax the wealthy, they cry and cry and cry.  
 
Remember, our Premier lives in a $2 million house, owns a business in Portage Le Prairie, a vacation home and multiple businesses in Costa Rica, plus he gets his premier wage, and he's collecting an MP pension. He's independently wealthy, and still Canadians are paying his way.  
 
And look here, rental support for the poor is going to get chopped: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/rent-assist-manitoba-1.3908781

Oh Canada said "    don brown said "Might be a dumb thing to say, but except for a very small percent of the population I just don't think people care. I've heard it said many times that government is a reflection of the population of the people of the country, and in many ways I have to agree with that idea. Political parties are supposed to have ideologies, but from what I've seen is we have political parties that promise to special interests and try to convince us how by benefiting that area we will all benefit.   Government may not be a business, but uses the idea that it is a business to justify many things that it does, the reason I say that government is not a business is that it produces very little, and circulates money for what they say is in our best interest, but this has led to intrusion in every part of our lives, at at a very high cost.   The reason I mentioned that government is a reflection of the population of the country come down to the fact that even without government debt, the debt of the average person continues to grow. The cost of servicing this debt comes with a cost, people seem to be able to service their debt, but is resulting in a situation where people believe they are falling behind. The solution is the same for government as the individual, and that is if you can't afford it, maybe rethink it.   The biggest problem I have with the current provincial government is when you take over the goverence of a province, who is in severe financial problems, you don't increase you wages, reguardless of what a report says.   My honest opinion is that there is no way to unwind what has happened to our province as well as our country, and the solution won't come from the political sector. " Great post Don. Were do you think the solutions will come from?     I would suggest that sooner or later it is all going to catch up with us both as a province and as individuals. Sooner or later either the lenders of the funds are going to say no to more loans or slow down the flow of funds to support us .     I would suggest the last number or years we have been living like a family living on a line of credit from the bank. Someone is going to have to pay back the debt. It may not be us but it will be the next generation.     The people that will be effected the most are those that rely on government services that are funded by taxes.     As Don indicated most people live for today, are marketed to think that way (so companies can sell their goods and services)and do not want to think of how it will effect them in the future. In many ways we are doing this as a province and country .     Small pain now ( reduced services) may be better than what is will feel like if we continue to kick the can down the road. "

Exactly, Oh Canada, "small pain now". But, again, why should it be the poor that pay (reduced services) when the wealthy can afford it?  
 
When you have an annual income of $20,000 (full time at minimum wage) and you pay $2,000 in taxes, you can barely afford anything more than a car (to get to work), food, and rent. This the reality for many people in Manitoba.

That rental program that's on the chopping board helps landlords as much as it helps tenants. If tenants don't earn enough to pay rent, the landlords won't have an income.

The Ndp govt added to much middle management and the civil service became bloated. The only way to right the ship is to make cuts or increase taxes to pay for the waste. In business, if you don't have the money to pay the bills you make cuts, but in govt you run a deficit.  
As far as the premieres wages, there are probably thousands of upper management jobs making more and I guarantee you they have much nicer homes and take far more time off.

I can understand your frustration about when government talks of cutting and the cutting does start with targeting programs that help those who are really face the challenges of having enough food,clothing, and shelter. I have never received monies from the province, although in earlier years, when my wife and I were starting out, I was likely entitled to do so. Maybe in hindsight we should have taken money from government, because there were times that we did struggle, I was lucky because I had family to fall back on, and if things did get to desperate they did help. I am not sure what exactly the governmentery does take into consideration when figuring out what is needed to survive, but I have heard that allotments are made for things like entertainment, things like that tend to rub people the wrong way, especially if they are true.  
 
Our family has been around this country for 135 years and has experienced what life was like before some of these programs existed. My greatgrandfather lost everything because of the Great Depression, and basically he as well as his wife died destitute, and it was only because of the charity of family that they lived as long as they did.  
We developed social programs to help people out, programs like a social assistance program, as well as a social pension plan and a social medical program, and these plans were good programs. Maybe it was because of the prosperity that followed the Second World War that we got really carried away and decided that we could come to the assistance of everyone in every situation. I really didn't understand what creeping socialism was until I looked at where we started and where we are today.  
I'll agree with you that when cuts are being made they seem to starting the wrong area. Likely won't make friends with some of these next comments, but it's how I see it. Just in the city of Brandon I see things like the city owning a golf course, or water parks, or a city beautification project, or even the sportsplex, and there are many other things that have cost, or do cost significant money. I understand the reasoning behind many of these projects, but all these programs do cost money, taxpayer money.  
How do we unwind these programs and prioritize things, I haven't a clue. Politicians of all stripes, as well as government in general seem to have a disconnect with certain parts of our society, and that disconnect does seem to be growing.  
 
History does contain similar problems in societies, as well as the outcomes, but we humans are a interesting bunch, we look at history and say "that was then, and now is now, and things have changed".

Diogenes said "That rental program that's on the chopping board helps landlords as much as it helps tenants. If tenants don't earn enough to pay rent, the landlords won't have an income. "

To be clear they are reviewing the program. This is a long way from cutting it.  
 
They should be reviewing all programs to make sure that they are achieving the goals that they were set out to accomplish. If they are not achieving the goals for the money it is allocated then the funds need to be reduced, increased or the goal needs to be changed.  
 
If they did not review programs that are funded by tax dollars how do they know what is working and what isn't.  
 
Anyone that thinks that most in power government don't throw money at programs the years prior to a election they are in a position to loose to buy votes needs to think again.