Discussions

Fishin Guy said "    Oh Canada said "Does anyone know what types of businesses have been set up on urban reserves? What benefit would those be to the people of Brandon? What negative effect would it have on those that compete with the businesses on the urban reserve? " From what I have seen online it is VLT gaming center, gas station, lots of native government departments. There is lease space but haven't seen too many businesses. "

So do we not have a lot of all of those presently in the city? What benefit is there to have more?  
 
I part of the idea for native people that have a treaty number able to purchase gas and smokes tax free or around 25% to 40% off?  
 
Would this not have a negative effect on other businesses in the city that already exist ?

Johnbisonbear said "    fargobob said "    Johnbisonbear said "    fargobob said "I have no problem with anyone coming to Brandon to invest in a business venture. Is there any reason it would [b]have[/b] to be on an urban reserve though. Haven't we enough devide between the Native population and non-Native Canadians?     Canadians, all Canadians, need to work toward a society that is [b]us[/b] not [b]them and us[/b]. An urban reserve moves us in the exact opposite direction. IMO, short term ecconomic benifits aside, an urban reserve does nothing overall to promote a healthy Canada. " According to the Brandon Sun today an urban reserve would pay a `fee for service'. This fee is calculated the same way as property taxes are and would i:nclude additional charges any other municipal property owner might incur such as in local improvement costs.     So what's the problem? If the city would be collecting money from a FN business for setting up here there shouldn't be an issue.     But I bet lots of people will still be opposed to any FN having 'urban reserve' status here in Brandon. " "So what''s the problem? If the city would be collecting money from a FN business for setting up here there shouldn''t be an issue."     I suppose if you don''t look at it any more closely than you seem to have, it''s pretty easy to suggest that there wouldn''t be a problem. You''ve only covered municipal taxes in that "fee for service". All reserves are exempt from school taxes as well as all provincial and federal taxes. Native employees and businesses, on a reserve, are also exempt from both federal and provincial income taxes. That kind of financial advantage would put any competing existing businesses at a serious financial disadvantage. Some folks might see that as an issue.     I said before that Canadians need to come together as a people to make this a better country. Creating urban reserves does more to divide our people than bring them together. I guess, depending on one''s point of view, that''s OK.     Edited by fargobob, 2017-02-17 17:04:34" don`t have a problem with the possibility of BU having an educational building downtown, they would be exempt from paying the city taxes and they got a bargain on the land too? "

I'm not really sure how one relates to the other, but education is something we all need. All of us take advantage of our own education, along with the education that others are getting, or have already received. We use the services of freshly educated doctors, lawyers, tradespeople along with people in all walks of life. Education is the lifeblood of our country and enables us to move forward, evolve and thrive. Every Canadian has the opportunity to take advantage of our educational system in many different ways.  
 
I do think the taxpayers of Brandon took it on the chin a bit on the value of the land Brandon University got, but again, I'm not sure how this relates to urban reserves.

fargobob said "    Johnbisonbear said "    fargobob said "    Johnbisonbear said "    fargobob said "I have no problem with anyone coming to Brandon to invest in a business venture. Is there any reason it would [b]have[/b] to be on an urban reserve though. Haven't we enough devide between the Native population and non-Native Canadians?     Canadians, all Canadians, need to work toward a society that is [b]us[/b] not [b]them and us[/b]. An urban reserve moves us in the exact opposite direction. IMO, short term ecconomic benifits aside, an urban reserve does nothing overall to promote a healthy Canada. " According to the Brandon Sun today an urban reserve would pay a `fee for service'. This fee is calculated the same way as property taxes are and would i:nclude additional charges any other municipal property owner might incur such as in local improvement costs.     So what's the problem? If the city would be collecting money from a FN business for setting up here there shouldn't be an issue.     But I bet lots of people will still be opposed to any FN having 'urban reserve' status here in Brandon. " "So what''s the problem? If the city would be collecting money from a FN business for setting up here there shouldn''t be an issue."     I suppose if you don''t look at it any more closely than you seem to have, it''s pretty easy to suggest that there wouldn''t be a problem. You''ve only covered municipal taxes in that "fee for service". All reserves are exempt from school taxes as well as all provincial and federal taxes. Native employees and businesses, on a reserve, are also exempt from both federal and provincial income taxes. That kind of financial advantage would put any competing existing businesses at a serious financial disadvantage. Some folks might see that as an issue.     I said before that Canadians need to come together as a people to make this a better country. Creating urban reserves does more to divide our people than bring them together. I guess, depending on one''s point of view, that''s OK.     Edited by fargobob, 2017-02-17 17:04:34" don`t have a problem with the possibility of BU having an educational building downtown, they would be exempt from paying the city taxes and they got a bargain on the land too? " I'm not really sure how one relates to the other, but education is something we all need. All of us take advantage of our own education, along with the education that others are getting, or have already received. We use the services of freshly educated doctors, lawyers, tradespeople along with people in all walks of life. Education is the lifeblood of our country and enables us to move forward, evolve and thrive. Every Canadian has the opportunity to take advantage of our educational system in many different ways.     I do think the taxpayers of Brandon took it on the chin a bit on the value of the land Brandon University got, but again, I'm not sure how this relates to urban reserves. "

that I wonder where BU is going to get the cash to start building. From the three levels of government? I can't see the province spitting out cash when they are making cut backs to everything.  
 
Yes Brandon taxpayers got nothing from that land deal and if there is an educational building? Still nothing, so double whammy!

And special privilefges is cancerous to a society. Integration is the only way where all peoples can truly come together as a nation. Reserves, be it far North or in uban settings results in special treatment, services that don't benefit the people they are meant to help and are a "gigantic" tax strain that will eventually cripple the country economicaly as taxpayers are taxed to the hill already. This segregation though will continue as the native leaders/cheifs have to much to lose financially should integration be implemented si my guess is that it willnever occur and the pain and despair that too many aboriginals are going through will sadly continue. This urban reserve would be a bad idea as it would give native businesses an advantage (tax wise) in comparison to the taxpaying companies. Not a good idea!

First off, an urban reserve is the opposite of segregation, it is designating some area in a developed area as a business district but as part of a land claim, instead of giving only the crappiest land and shoving people off it when oil is discovered or it's wanted for some other kind of development, so the thing about segregation is a total non-starter.  
 
Secondly, I will say again that taking away other people's inheritance and/or rights is NOT the way to create equality! If it was, we would take away EVERYONE'S children and put them in cold residential schools to have their culture removed and to damage generations, or put them into foster homes, so that EVERYONE can have the SAME experience. NO.  
 
I get that people have a lot of misconceptions about 1: Reserves and 2: Treaty Rights and 3: they thing their tax dollars are paying for First Nations expenses. Learn something instead of being scared that OOoooo a First Nations business might have an ADVANTAGE god forbid, but where were you with your complaining when ALL THEY HAD WAS DISADVANTAGES???? What a lot of crummy hypocrisy.  
 
Do you want first nations to be segregated on remote reserves or integrated right here in developed or developable areas??? Seems like you don't want them ANYWHERE.

"Check your privilege"  
a privilege is defined* as:  
 
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.  
 
so when someone says check your privilege i guess it means that we should all check into any right or advantage or immunity that each of us has available to them.  
 
So... who has rights... well we all have human rights under the charter of human rights, which says that no one will be discriminated against based on race, religion, sex, etc  
 
Advantages..... well this can be a natural advantage, such as being blessed with a high metabolism so that one has the advantage of being skinny, or a non natural advantage such as an artificial device that does a task for you faster then someone that does not have the device can ( ie speech to text technology vs typing).  
 
Immunity... now here is the sticking point for many people in this discussion, as it seems that the FN have an immunity to taxes that everyone else has to pay. According to the above definition of privilege, the FN have a privilege that the rest of the people do not...  
 
I know that some people will say that "the system" is set up giving 'white men' all the privilege. Please show me where in a treaty or charter or law (etc) it is written that there is any right, advantage or immunity granted to 'white males' or equivalent wording.  
 
And i do not mean a hate groups charter, or the Nazis charter, but current Canadian government recognized legal charters, laws, treaties, etc.  
 
Check your privilege..... who has the immunity to taxes?  
 
Not me  
 
 
*Reference: Definition of privilege taken from first definition from oxford dictionary  
Website: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/privilege

Reserves are segregated in one form or another from the main population. Much of the social issues on reserves are because of segregation IMO. I do get that cultures and traditions are important, but it shouldn''''''''t end there. To truly succeed and thrive all aboriginals should know that reserve life is detrimental to their success and thriving as a people. When all material things ae given then one doesn''''''''t respect it''''''''s true value as when it''''''''s destroyed, the government will provide me another one or means to acquire another, whatever. There''''''''s much to be said about paying your own way through life. I agree that there have been government mistakes in the past, but government is scared and are damned if they do and damned when they don''''''''t! Best thing in my opinion in the end would be to have all aboriginals living among all of us, yes integration to the fullest and no reserves as we currently know them. Reserves would become "summer vacation" spots where one could re-conect with the culture and traditions of the past. The world has changed since colonialisation, but for the most part the aboriginal communityhas not participated as they should have in the evolution of entrepreneurial world. Much of this has to do with the establishment of reserves and the segregation that it creates. Like I wrote earlier though, is that the leaders and cheifs want the status quo of reserves and segregation because it benefits their financial well being all the while being detrimental "way of life" to the very peoples they are supposedly helping!  
 
Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-02-18 14:50:23

Tater if you think First Nations money does not come from tax dollars where does it come from a money tree?

I was going to put a comment on about subjective comments and o:bjective comments, since I'm the type of person who likes the o:bjective idea, but instead of making a comment on that I will just give a link that sort of explains it.  
 
http://www.diffen.com/difference/o:bjective_vs_Subjective  
 
There was a comment posted about the treatment of First Nation people in regards to things like assimilation, now some people seem to think that this was the result of colonial thinking, but once again instead of arguing the fact, I will provide a link that shows that it existed on this continent before the arrival of settlers, and was practiced by First Nations people. Now there will likely be those who wish to argue the link, but I would suggest reading the biography of the author, before condemning the link. Please read the des:criptions of all the different tribes, and you will see that the tribes with the power did have control, and had allies and enemies, also take note that some tribes tried to assimilate those who they conquered.  
 
The second link  
 
http://davemcgary.com/canadian-native-american-tribes.htm  
 
Thanks for taking the time to educate yourself.  
 
Edited by don brown, 2017-02-18 16:20:42

It seems that the first link will not post correctly reguardless of me trying to edit, and get it to spell o:bjective correctly, likely it will not spell it correctly here as well.  
 
http://www.diffen.com/difference/o:bjective_vs_Subjective  
 
Edited by don brown, 2017-02-18 16:28:49

Revenue that Is accrued from the use of crown lands held in trust for First Nations has not only provided ALL the budget of monies paid out to them, but it has subsidized the colonial government of Canada, settlers, and has paid for the entire department of Indian Affairs (northern affairs, etc. as they change the name from time to time).  
 
I'm not a Treaty expert, lawyer, historian or economist, but I'm willing to wager that none of you asking where the money comes from are either. Holy cow, if the treaty system stopped subsidizing the operation if this country, by gum you'd see a harsh reality!  
 
As for the comments about what privilege means, the fact you resorted to the dictionary shows me you don't even know what immunity or other words mean!  
YOU BET I will say this society has selected for the white male privilege! And you will never see someone cling to desperately to their privilege than when others are reaching for equality. The government if this country has wasted TAX DOLLARS on legal proceedings against the treaty land entitlements to which Canada is subject, and has LOST EVERY ONE. They appeal and appeal and appeal.m  
 
Educate yourself.

Anyone is free to set up a business in Brandon. Why do we need an Urban Reserve.

Tator could you please elaborate on the privileges a white male has in today's society. I think both you and I are blessed to live in one of the greatest country in the world. We all have choices and opportunities what we choose to do with them is up to the individual.

First off, who is 'we'? If you want to know the purpose I don't know why no one is saying they're going to attend any information session or what not? Honestly, since people have such nonsense ideas about making other people equal by taking away their entitlements, and how the most oppressed and discriminated group in Canada is actually "privileged", and think that each of their tax dollars are somehow supporting First Nations when they have zero interest in learning about there's sties, tax law, the relationship with the crown, public finance, or basically anything else, I don't see any point in trying to explain the benefits to both the associated First Nations organizations and the municipality and the business community, because it seems most people won't drop the mythology long enough to listen.  
 
Here's a question for ebrandoners: do you think the city of Brandon, the chamber of commerce, etc would be planning and promoting this if they didn't see a benefit? If they didn't think it was good for development and the local economy? Because THAT is exactly what it's good for.

Correct me if Iam wrong was it not voted on a few years ago over the sand hills casino?

Tater said "Revenue that Is accrued from the use of crown lands held in trust for First Nations has not only provided ALL the budget of monies paid out to them, but it has subsidized the colonial government of Canada, settlers, and has paid for the entire department of Indian Affairs (northern affairs, etc. as they change the name from time to time).     I'm not a Treaty expert, lawyer, historian or economist, but I'm willing to wager that none of you asking where the money comes from are either. Holy cow, if the treaty system stopped subsidizing the operation if this country, by gum you'd see a harsh reality!     As for the comments about what privilege means, the fact you resorted to the dictionary shows me you don't even know what immunity or other words mean!   YOU BET I will say this society has selected for the white male privilege! And you will never see someone cling to desperately to their privilege than when others are reaching for equality. The government if this country has wasted TAX DOLLARS on legal proceedings against the treaty land entitlements to which Canada is subject, and has LOST EVERY ONE. They appeal and appeal and appeal.m     Educate yourself. "

When you say, "Revenue that Is accrued from the use of crown lands held in trust for First Nations has not only provided ALL the budget of monies paid out to them," I find that intriguing. I could mot find anywhere on the net about Canada holds monies in trust for Canadian natives. Please post a link if you have one as I am very interested in reading and educating myself more on this subject.  
I think that the "Reserve" system in Canada is brolen and it may never change as the leaders of the "Reserve" take in more cash from Canada as the Reserve grows, is this correct? I think it is and thus this is flawed as the leaders have a "conflict of interest" in doing what''s right for the "Band members" or lining their pockets. Leaders of the Reserve, if really working for their band members should first and foremost look at making the lives of the band members better. Making their lives and future better starts with employment which leads to a purpose and well being. Having said tat, the leaders should approach surroung businesses and find employment for their members. This would require committment from band members, but the benefits IMO would be beyond expectations. By working in cities/communities, band members would then be able to eventually move off the Reserve and integrate. That would be ideal, except for the band leaders that would see their funding reduced as members move off the Reserve. That''s what would be best for band members. Ask yourself this Tater.If an "Utban Reserve" gets approved for Brandon. Who do you think will benefit the most? The Cheifs and leaders or the band members that are struggling.  
 
Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-02-18 19:36:37

70`s guy said "Reserves are segregated in one form or another from the main population. Much of the social issues on reserves are because of segregation IMO. I do get that cultures and traditions are important, but it shouldn''''''''t end there. To truly succeed and thrive all aboriginals should know that reserve life is detrimental to their success and thriving as a people. When all material things ae given then one doesn''''''''t respect it''''''''s true value as when it''''''''s destroyed, the government will provide me another one or means to acquire another, whatever. There''''''''s much to be said about paying your own way through life. I agree that there have been government mistakes in the past, but government is scared and are damned if they do and damned when they don''''''''t! Best thing in my opinion in the end would be to have all aboriginals living among all of us, yes integration to the fullest and no reserves as we currently know them. Reserves would become "summer vacation" spots where one could re-conect with the culture and traditions of the past. The world has changed since colonialisation, but for the most part the aboriginal communityhas not participated as they should have in the evolution of entrepreneurial world. Much of this has to do with the establishment of reserves and the segregation that it creates. Like I wrote earlier though, is that the leaders and cheifs want the status quo of reserves and segregation because it benefits their financial well being all the while being detrimental "way of life" to the very peoples they are supposedly helping!     Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-02-18 14:50:23"

'but for the most part the aboriginal community has not participated as they should have in the evolution of entrepreneurial world'  
 
Here is the Aboriginal community trying to do business and some people are still slamming the door in their face.

You make a good point, to an extent. I would rather see Native entrepreneurs playing on a level field with non native entrepreneurs though. What I mean, is that an ''''Urban Reserve" would not pay their fair share of taxes while potentially harming the businesses that do pay very heavy taxes to operate. Yes, I''''m all for Native businesses as long as we all play the same game. Otherwise it will breed resentment from people trying to make a living and we''''ll wonder why we live in a "us and them" society.  
 
Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-02-18 19:44:08

I tried to post a link to subjective ideas or comments, and o:bjective ideas and comments, but it didn''t work. The reason I tried to post this has to do with trying to solve problems and actually move things forward. The idea of subjective comments is not something that can be attributed to any one group, and I hear very subjective comments made by white people.  
You talk of the city, and chamber of commerce putting on meetings, but the idea cannot be considered something that is good until people go past the subjective idea and move on to the o:bjective idea.  
I would like to give you an example. Right now there is a gas bar at the junction of #21 and #1 highway on the north side of #1. I was told the gas ibar is the property of First Nations people. Looking at this with a subjective view is, or was fine, everyone uses gas, and it is at a fairly busy intersection with traffic from all directions. Now if I travel down to #83 and go south to #2 I will not see much but open country, but at the intersection I will notice a vacant lot to the west that was a gas station, as I travel east I will see another empty gas bar on the north side of the hiway, when I get to Deleau there is another closed gas bar. When I go through Souris I realize that at one time there were four gas bars along the hiway, now there is the cardlock and one gas bar, I now travel east to the junction of #2 and #10, at this location the used to be the Log Cabin which also had a gas bar and now there is nothing. Subjective thinking likely led to the decision to build a gas bar at Griswold, but o:bjective thinking would maybe have questioned whether it was a good idea or not given the facts. How do I feel about the gas bar, I wish them luck because it was an attempt to move forward.  
Since this discussion is about a urban reserve I will say that I am completely ignorant of urban reserves, but suggestions have been made that it might involve a gaming centre and a gas bar and maybe offices. Approaching this with a o:bjective bias should involve more than saying it is a good idea. I am not sure about the number of people who would use a gaming centre, it is likely larger than I imagine since I am not so inclined, but as for the benefit of First Nations people I would wonder if having to gaming centres so close together would not end up with reduced revenues to both centres, the gas bar is sort of self explanatory, it will compete with other gas bars in the city.  
When it comes to the city, and the chamber of commerce it think they have an agenda which may be slightly short sighted. I say that not because I''m putting the idea down but because if the idea flies for a short period of time they still come out winners, it is sort of like promoting things like the fair or sports events or whatever draws people to the city, even if it is for a short time.  
 
Edited by don brown, 2017-02-18 20:14:33

70`s guy said "You make a good point, to an extent. I would rather see Native entrepreneurs playing on a level field with non native entrepreneurs though. What I mean, is that an ''''Urban Reserve" would not pay their fair share of taxes while potentially harming the businesses that do pay very heavy taxes to operate. Yes, I''''m all for Native businesses as long as we all play the same game. Otherwise it will breed resentment from people trying to make a living and we''''ll wonder why we live in a "us and them" society.     Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-02-18 19:44:08"

in the Brandon Sun article today it states that an urban reserve would pay a 'fee for service' and it would be the same amount as any other business that pays a tax bill. An urban reserve would also be 'on the hook' to pay for local improvements just like any other business.  
 
That being said I don't know why some people are so against urban reserves. I guess they are under the assumption that a city would not benefit financially from a urban reserve.

What kind of business it is is totally irrelevant. Any business will hopefully do a cost benefit analysis. Most commercial activity can be done through an urban reserve model, I believe, but not residential. If someone can confirm please correct me if I'm wrong.  
 
Why bring up some anecdotal examples of failed gas stations, like I'm not sure what you're saying here?

Do you really want me to elaborate on white male privilege? Because I can start with the fact white men have had the vote in Canada since the beginning of democracy, women for about a hundred years and Status Indians (I mean that as a legal term only, no offence meant to First Nations people) for only about 50 years. It takes time to reach full participation in society, women are still under represented in elected office sad corporate boardrooms, and first nstions people more so. This is not a coincidence.  
 
we can talk about how female premiers and MLAs in this country receive far more and more obscene and violent hate mail than their male counterparts, including more death threats and more threats of rape and other forms of demeaning sexualized violence. How about the sexual and racial harassment and bullying in the RCMP? This is just facts, very current facts. I can go on and on. Just stop pretending white male privilege doesn't exist. It would be funny if it wasn't sad and sickening.

The gas station I am talking about is not a failed gas station, it is a newly built gas station, and the reason I bring it up has to do with when anyone tries to move forward there is cost. The cost of a gas bar likely is substancial, and if it fails it means a loss to the reserve backing the idea. The idea has been floated that an Urban Reserve could include a gaming centre, at in a city like Brandon I'm sure we are not talking a bingo hall, but a casino idea, and the cost usually for such project can be enormous.  
I may be misinformed on this, but usually plans for such projects involve partnerships with other reserves to limit exposure to loss.

Johnbisonbear said "    70`s guy said "You make a good point, to an extent. I would rather see Native entrepreneurs playing on a level field with non native entrepreneurs though. What I mean, is that an ''''Urban Reserve" would not pay their fair share of taxes while potentially harming the businesses that do pay very heavy taxes to operate. Yes, I''''m all for Native businesses as long as we all play the same game. Otherwise it will breed resentment from people trying to make a living and we''''ll wonder why we live in a "us and them" society.     Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-02-18 19:44:08" in the Brandon Sun article today it states that an urban reserve would pay a 'fee for service' and it would be the same amount as any other business that pays a tax bill. An urban reserve would also be 'on the hook' to pay for local improvements just like any other business.     That being said I don't know why some people are so against urban reserves. I guess they are under the assumption that a city would not benefit financially from a urban reserve. "

The one part of the equation that may be missing is with that gas station will people that utilize their treaty number be able to purchase gas, cigarettes and potentially other items at prices that would be less approximately 25 to 40% less than they could at any similar facility off of the reserve land?  
 
The question as to the city and chamber of commerce supporting looking at it is not wrong in my opinion. As that seems reasonable . The real question it what benefit or concerns to competing businesses that will complete with such a designated urban reserve. An example could be what impact would a similar gas bar in the middle of Brandon do to competing business.

I'm not sure if my comment made any sense or not.  
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the world had changed as far as roadside gas bars, the failed gas bars that are along our hiways are sort of proof of this changed world, and yet there is a new gas bar at the location I mentioned, that is the reason I wished them the best. Declining rural population has played a part on this as well, it is no longer a situation that people know there is gas within a few miles and plan accordingly, maybe not everyone but most rural people do.

Tater since when is rape a white male privilege? Most of the examples you used are actually against the law not a privilege. Anyways it appears we don't agree on somethings but it was an interesting conversation thank you.

You clearly did not read what I said. I said female premieres and mlas receive more threats of violence and rape. I didn't say white men have the privilege of raping people, I said they DO NOT have the same amount and severity of threats that their female counterparts do. The society is set up to condone or allow this to some extent, or those critics would check their behaviour.  
 
When large groups of people continue unlawful behaviour for a long time and the society does not censure them, and those people belong to the group with more power in the organization, there is a systemic problem, and that system is set up to continue the poor behaviour regardless of the stated regulations in place. There is an unofficial power structure in place that robs stated rules and guidelines of effectiveness.  
 
I hope you found it interesting enough to decide to learn more.

I don't think that everyone would consider that integration idea is ideal, as that resembles cultural genocide, or a melting pot, when we have a value in Canada of multiculturalism.  
 
I think you'd find not everyone agrees that we should abolish the family farm, either, which is comparable in terms of the idea that people should move off the land and get jobs in the city with existing businesses and be like everybody else.  
 
As for monies held in trust, that is what the government is SUPPOSED to do, have they been? Doubt it, they've been trying to covertly exterminate First Nations, or as you say, integrate them til they lose their rights, to get rid of that legal obligation!  
 
If you really want yo understand more, the Treaty Relations Commission of Manitoba has a wonderful speakers bureau, with a broad range of topics for presentations and workshops, I'd recommend anyone to take the chance, if you're looking for a workplace workshop or something.

I attended a historical timeline presentation by Allen Sutherland and it was a real eye opener, I'm sure other presentations are great too, but that one was really informative!!

Its 2017, time to phase out relic race based policies not expand on them.  
 
I know some status holders who refuse to use any special treaty privileges afforded to them simply on principle, have a lot of respect for that.