Discussions

Was today's edition of The Brandon Sun, and a story by Jillian Austin, who did the actual work of chasing that story down. See it here: https://www.brandonsun.com/local/first-nation-city-working-on-land-development-deal-442193143.html  
 
When other media lift stories like this, without doing their own legwork and interviews, and then also refusing to give credit to the original source, I get a little irked.

I've never understood what exactly an urban reserve is and what differs between it and a conventional business venture.  
 
Why does the land status need to be changed to reserve status versus commercial ?  
 
The article mentions that the city will generate revenue from fees and water/sewer, so does that mean the area isn't taxed like regular commercial land ?  
 
Can a first nation buy land and develop it like any non native business does or are they forced to go through this process to develop ?

hutchster said "I've never understood what exactly an urban reserve is and what differs between it and a conventional business venture.     Why does the land status need to be changed to reserve status versus commercial ?     The article mentions that the city will generate revenue from fees and water/sewer, so does that mean the area isn't taxed like regular commercial land ?     Can a first nation buy land and develop it like any non native business does or are they forced to go through this process to develop ? "

With an urban reserve, it is reserve land not city land, so they do not have to pay taxes to the city of Bdn or follow Brandon city bylaws. I applaud them for wanting to develop a business to create employment, but city bylaws were created to protect the rights of neighboring property owners. For example, if it is not city land, there nothing stopping them from raising livestock on that property.

It would be nice to see the city of Brandon come on here and explain the details before others can spout stuff that isn't correct.

I don't know all of the logistics involved with Urban Reserves but I can guess by the article that these locations don't have to pay city taxes. If the owners and workers who are employed/owning here live on a reserve (would it have to be Gambler?) are they also tax exempt on their income?  
 
How can all the other businesses in the area (there's already lots of gas bars, hotels, etc in that area) compete against that???  
 
As someone who gets taxed on absolutely everything from income to property tax to capital gains I just can't help but wonder how I would feel being a business already established here when this new business goes up???  
 
Maybe I'm not right - maybe that isn't the case at all... but if it is it seems really unfair to those who don't get the exemptions in the nearby area.

At the very end of the Brandon Sun article, there was a mention of 'in lieu' payments. Those are the payments that are made instead of taxes...I don't know if they line up to the same amount, but it's the same approach taken by utilities and (at least some) other branches of government to municipal taxes. I've seen line items for it in our Municipality's income statements, I've seen statements about it regarding utility corridors in Winnipeg.  
 
So it's not fair to assume that they would not be contributing to the city. True, they may be able to offer fuel at a lower price, and some other things. But I suspect the staff incomes would be taxable.  
 
Overall, I think this could be very positive, and that people shouldn't be negative nellies about it just because it has the word 'reserve' attached to it. This is a First Nation that wants to better their situation - this is exactly what we should all want, a group of people deciding to better their situation in life. Regardless of ancestry, treaty rights, entrepreneurship history, etc.

the city needs to come out into the open and explain this deal so that we do not end up with a fiasco like the casino vote , most citizens are fully as smart as those on council and should have all the facts , not just what the city wants to disclose . they often do a very poor job providing information to the public.

It's not going to benefit the people of Brandon at all, unless you have a treaty card. You won't get cheaper gas or food. So what's the point?

Maybe someone can give me and others insight how a reserve of 300 people can afford and fund opening a retail locations in a city that is not even close to where their residents reside. If it is going to create jobs for those people are they going to relocated to Brandon or travel to Brandon to work?  
 
An example of this is the sand hills casino . What if any income has the reserves received when it has lost millions? What big windfall has this been to those reserves?  
 
Also if a urban reserve was located in Brandon this would definitely have a impact on similar business especially if people with status can buy products at a large discount compared to other locations that sell similar products. The proposed Brandon is much more convenient to get to than the Headingly locations.  
 
On the surface it may seem to be a good idea but there is a lot to consider for both the reserve and the city . There is a lot of other businesses that pay lots of money to support the city tax base.

I found this via Google when looking up "what is an urban reserve"  
It''s a PDF/slideshow created in August 2016 by Sandy Ttrudel of Economic Development Brandon.  
I''m guessing it was used for a presentation to city council & may offer a little info:  
 
http://www.brandon.ca/images/pdf/council/FN_UrbanDevelopmentAreas_PublicInfo.pdf  
 
Edited by hobbes, 2017-08-30 21:47:36

So i guess we will be getting that casino after all then ?

Reid said "So i guess we will be getting that casino after all then ? "

actual casino, it still needs to be okayed by the Province. They could put up a gaming room like what many places already have in Brandon with a few VLT's, that would probably be the extent.

Trevor B said "    Reid said "So i guess we will be getting that casino after all then ? " actual casino, it still needs to be okayed by the Province. They could put up a gaming room like what many places already have in Brandon with a few VLT's, that would probably be the extent. "

Like last time the province will ok it, but the city has no say this time ? You get my point ?

Clearly we wouldn't want another casino but if they could have a hotel, convenience store or anything that would provide jobs that would be optimal.

I can see why Gambler would be a good choice. They really are tucked away in an odd spot. I hope this investment works out for them.

hobbes said "I found this via Google when looking up "what is an urban reserve"   It''s a PDF/slideshow created in August 2016 by Sandy Ttrudel of Economic Development Brandon.   I''m guessing it was used for a presentation to city council & may offer a little info:     http://www.brandon.ca/images/pdf/council/FN_UrbanDevelopmentAreas_PublicInfo.pdf     Edited by hobbes, 2017-08-30 21:47:36"

Thanks for the link - coming from a local source it is very helpful for the questions I had.  
 
My question is - would the city be willing to tell us what kind of tax loss compensation would be coming from the urban reserve? (and how that compares to what any other business built on this land would similarly pay?) Is it a one-time payment or a yearly compensation? It's hard to know what a good decision is if we can't make good comparisons. Also - what bylaws will be enforceable by agreement on the urban reserve? Sure we may agree to say, a noise bylaw, but then maybe we don't enforce a parking bylaw? (just an example)  
 
I don't understand why all working citizens of this country, regardless of status shouldn't be paying into the tax pool. There are many first nations chiefs, etc making multi-hundreds of thousands of dollars tax free while everyone else in that situation would be paying back the government HALF of that income - which is supposed to go to help those who need it, among other tax needs. I digress, that is probably a discussion for another topic and I don't want to stray too far from the point.  
 
Also - just a question - because I haven't been actively looking... is there a large lack of retail/cleaning/gas station type jobs in Brandon or do they just not pay well enough to make people want to apply for them? Would there be a difference in employment opportunity if the land was developed and remained municipal as opposed to becoming first nations land???

and probably 100s of others. The City really needs to open and transparent with ALL the details of this deal. We all live here, we all pay taxes, this should be a deal that we all are able to understand and have up to date information on.

I have a pretty good understanding of how this deal works. There is no real downside to the City to having a Urban Reserve within it's limits.  
 
The City will be compensated in lieu of property taxes, every year that there is property on that land. In the end, the payments in lieu of taxes may as well just be called property taxes - just a different name and different method for collecting. If I owned an identical building on the same land, directly beside the reserve, my property taxes would be the same amount as their in lieu payment. They'll pay the same amount for water/sewer, and the same amount for hydro. There isn't a concern about a competitive advantage here.  
 
The competitive advantage will come from Status people being able to work there and pay only the income taxes that are paid on reserve (which I think is zero). This should encourage aboriginal people to work on the reserve - at the end of the day, more money in their pocket. More people employed in our community is a good thing.

I'm not sure why they can't just pay the property taxes - but if I had to guess, it will have to do with the land becoming "reserve land", which by law isn't required to pay taxes.  
 
The in lieu payments are a way for the City to become whole - charging the owner of the property for the services provided (roads, sewer, water, Police etc), while still obeying the rules set out by the Feds.  
 
That said - I agree with your statement about trust and doing away with these little loopholes. It just makes everything messier.

JMJL said "I have a pretty good understanding of how this deal works. There is no real downside to the City to having a Urban Reserve within it's limits.     The City will be compensated in lieu of property taxes, every year that there is property on that land. In the end, the payments in lieu of taxes may as well just be called property taxes - just a different name and different method for collecting. If I owned an identical building on the same land, directly beside the reserve, my property taxes would be the same amount as their in lieu payment. They'll pay the same amount for water/sewer, and the same amount for hydro. There isn't a concern about a competitive advantage here.     The competitive advantage will come from Status people being able to work there and pay only the income taxes that are paid on reserve (which I think is zero). This should encourage aboriginal people to work on the reserve - at the end of the day, more money in their pocket. More people employed in our community is a good thing. "

Good idea how this works huh! Maybe you do, but I'm not sure. I think you may have a "trusting" idea of how this works. If "in lieu" is same as taxes paid for similar business next door as you trust it is, then why call it "in lieu" instead of taxing the business as others? I'd hate to see "taxed businesses" suffer sales and business to an "Urban reserve" business due to an operating advantage such as "in lieu" payments instead of taxes, whatever that is. IMO, an aboriginal business in an urban area is a great idea as long as the business plays along tge same rules as everybody else. I would suggest that the difference would be at the employee stage where status individuals be taxed far less than non status workers. I personaly would support status individuals paying less income tax (maybe tgey only pay provincial and no federal) and that would i:nclude on reserve or off, no matter! However, special business oportunities for status businesses line the pockets of the leaders and not so much the average aborigals where help is most required.

Jkk15 said "Clearly we wouldn't want another casino but if they could have a hotel, convenience store or anything that would provide jobs that would be optimal. "

Why "wouldn't we want another casino"?  
Maybe the thinking of Brandonites has evolved.  
If it is as well-run and customer oriented as Sandhills, with a hotel, it would be a welcome addition to any community. A lot of people who don't gamble go there for the high quality of food.

mackenzie5 said "the city needs to come out into the open and explain this deal so that we do not end up with a fiasco like the casino vote , most citizens are fully as smart as those on council and should have all the facts , not just what the city wants to disclose . they often do a very poor job providing information to the public. "

Do you require the city to explain every development deal it enters into with other entities? Do you know what type of taxation deals other businesses receive. How much of our tax dollars, on top of property tax concessions, have big operations like Maple Leaf received over the years?  
 
The fact is many non aboriginal developers get property tax concessions when negotiating a project. Many get government grants and "investments". In this case, the First Nation will be paying the property tax equivalent via a grant-in-lieu. Does it really matter if we call it "property tax", "grant-in-lieu" or "blueberry pancakes"?

Bisonlander said "    mackenzie5 said "the city needs to come out into the open and explain this deal so that we do not end up with a fiasco like the casino vote , most citizens are fully as smart as those on council and should have all the facts , not just what the city wants to disclose . they often do a very poor job providing information to the public. " Do you require the city to explain every development deal it enters into with other entities? Do you know what type of taxation deals other businesses receive. How much of our tax dollars, on top of property tax concessions, have big operations like Maple Leaf received over the years?     The fact is many non aboriginal developers get property tax concessions when negotiating a project. Many get government grants and "investments". In this case, the First Nation will be paying the property tax equivalent via a grant-in-lieu. Does it really matter if we call it "property tax", "grant-in-lieu" or "blueberry pancakes"? "

as long as we end up with a level playing field and all get to pay their share , for how long does this agreement extend and are there any clauses to allow an increase in the future

about an 'even playing field' in regards to paying taxes, I'm sure it will be.  
 
No body complains that companies can get tax dollars though, like Maple Leaf.

Before posting on here people need to understand that under the Indian Act, municipal governments are not allowed to tax treaty land. Furthermore, the city would be breaching a lot of laws and acts by disclosing information on an agreement while it's still open...it would be like a realtor telling everyone how much someone is offering on a house. The deal isn't done yet, so details will be few. There are already urban reserves in Winnipeg, Saskatoon and Regina, so it's not anything new.

Johnbisonbear said "about an 'even playing field' in regards to paying taxes, I'm sure it will be.     No body complains that companies can get tax dollars though, like Maple Leaf. "

Gotta respond to this!  
People are tslking about level playing fields here and you talk "Maple Leaf"!  
Maple Leaf is a huge employer in a very unique business so there is no competition in Brandon and no field to keep level should provincial or municipal governments choose to give Maple Leaf some break to set up shop in our community. There is "no field" to level in this case!  
On the other hand. The urban reserve compete''s directly with other businesses and special tax concessions to the urban reserve businesses would make an "uneven" playing field with their competitors. If I owned a convenience/gas outlet near the proposed "Urban Reserve", I would be worried as my livelyhood would certainly be threatened should this "urban reserve" stand up with special tax exemptions. When comparing we have to compare oranges to oranges and not oranges to something else.  
 
Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-08-31 22:10:51

70`s guy said "    Johnbisonbear said "about an 'even playing field' in regards to paying taxes, I'm sure it will be.     No body complains that companies can get tax dollars though, like Maple Leaf. " Gotta respond to this!   People are tslking about level playing fields here and you talk "Maple Leaf"!   Maple Leaf is a huge employer in a very unique business so there is no competition in Brandon and no field to keep level should provincial or municipal governments choose to give Maple Leaf some break to set up shop in our community. There is "no field" to level in this case!   On the other hand. The urban reserve compete''s directly with other businesses and special tax concessions to the urban reserve businesses would make an "uneven" playing field with their competitors. If I owned a convenience/gas outlet near the proposed "Urban Reserve", I would be worried as my livelyhood would certainly be threatened should this "urban reserve" stand up with special tax exemptions. When comparing we have to compare oranges to oranges and not oranges to something else.     Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-08-31 22:10:51"

Does Maple Leaf make a profit? Does the company have shareholders? Tax dollars go to help the shareholders get rich?

Johnbisonbear said "    70`s guy said "    Johnbisonbear said "about an 'even playing field' in regards to paying taxes, I'm sure it will be.     No body complains that companies can get tax dollars though, like Maple Leaf. " Gotta respond to this!   People are tslking about level playing fields here and you talk "Maple Leaf"!   Maple Leaf is a huge employer in a very unique business so there is no competition in Brandon and no field to keep level should provincial or municipal governments choose to give Maple Leaf some break to set up shop in our community. There is "no field" to level in this case!   On the other hand. The urban reserve compete''s directly with other businesses and special tax concessions to the urban reserve businesses would make an "uneven" playing field with their competitors. If I owned a convenience/gas outlet near the proposed "Urban Reserve", I would be worried as my livelyhood would certainly be threatened should this "urban reserve" stand up with special tax exemptions. When comparing we have to compare oranges to oranges and not oranges to something else.     Edited by 70`s guy, 2017-08-31 22:10:51" Does Maple Leaf make a profit? Does the company have shareholders? Tax dollars go to help the shareholders get rich? "

Maple Leaf makes a profit, not always, but the aim is certainly to make a profit and thus increase shareholder value. This is off topic, but pertinent to the argument here that bailouts/incentives to larger coorporations (more importantly) will increase the number of workers, thus increasing the city's/ province's tax payer base therefore giving more people, more money to spend in their respective communities allowing the economy to grow which benefits all in the end.  
I think that most people oposed to an urban reserve don't see tax incentives given to the development in the same light as say, a Maple Leaf handout. Why? Because the taxes 'in lieu" are probably beneficial to the urban reserves bottom line instead of detrimental and thus creates an uneven playing field for other "smaller" entrepreneurs trying to survive in an already very competitive part of the economy. Jobs created within the urban reserve will likely have a negative impact on existing businesses where their bottom line will likely suffer and maybe even job losses in existing operational businesses so the overall effect in job creation for Brandon with the "urban reserve" will likely be "zero" with the "urban reserve" gains will be from current operational business losses. There is a better way to employ aboriginal individuals without hurting existing tax paying businesses.

Don't have many answers myself, but did find a link the tries to explain some of the ideas, if is from the CBC, does that slant it one way or the other, maybe, but we have to start somewhere.  
 
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/manitoba/demystifying-urban-reserves-1.2993051