Discussions

Will this vehicle come in handy once in a while.....sure.  
 
But complete overkill.  
 
This is the continuation of the militarization of police across the country.

So, what is your solution to a high risk situation that may arise? How should the police handle a active shooting or barricaded person situation? What tactics do you propose? Everyone here seems to really have the solutions but they are not the ones possibly facing a crazy person with a gun. Its easy to sit behind your computer and say "Thats overkill." but its not so easy to go out and do the job each day.  
 
Its ridiculous for people to say that because the job is not on some top 10 list they dont need special equipment that protects them! Policing can be very dangerous, sure its not all the time and ideally its not dangerous for most of the officers careers. However, there will be one day when all things go off the rails and the situation becomes violent and dangerous. Its those times when none of the keyboard warriors on here would dare step in their shoes. Its those days that the police WILL need the equipment to help them resolve that situation. Just because we live in Brandon, MB don't think we are immune to that level of violence.

I fear that if the police start driving armoured military vehicles around the streets it could fuel violence and make matters worse. Surely there are more intelligent ways to tackle violent gangs and the drug culture. Per your many examples from the United States where such vehicles are used it would appear that the problems are only growing worse and while these vehicles do help to dispel a situation the same money would I think be better spent to help prevent those incidents happening in the first place. I feel that militarizing against criminals will not help in the long term.

You want to get into real life statistics , I am more likely to be killed by one of my own cows so I guess that I should get one of these machines for calving season. I know that it is different but the numbers are out there if you search.

Are you seriously comparing raising cattle to the risks a police officer faces? That has to be the most ridiculous comparison and argument of 2019! Congratulations.  
 
http://police.brandon.ca/images/pdf/annualReports/report_2018.pdf  
 
Some interesting statistics from the annual police report linked above:  
 
2018 revealed some significant changes to the landscape the Brandon Police Service Members are dealing with on a daily basis. With the increase in illicit drugs, Brandon Police Service Members have also seen a corresponding increase in weapons  
seized, particularly firearms. In 2018, Brandon Police Service seized 200 firearms (42 were from a Provincial Amnesty Program)  
which is a 127% increase from 2017. The upsurge of firearms has also created a demand on the Emergency Response Team (ERT) to ensure dangerous situations are safely mitigated. In 2018, ERT was deployed to successfully resolve 14 critical incidents. Prior to 2018, the average use of ERT was twice per year.  
 
Weapons Offences have  
increased 534% in the last  
four years from 44 in 2015 to  
279 in 2018.  
 
These are calls that police have to deal with. Not a cattle farmer. I hardly doubt your riding old Betsy into town to save the day. BUT, i do bet you would not hesitate to call on the services of the police when your in need of their help.  
 
Even if only one of those 279 weapons offences is related to a high risk situation the police deserve to have the protection and equipment to protect themselves, the public and the perpetrator. Its funny how so many of you are up in arms about this purchase, yet I bet if your ever a victim of gun violence, or your involved in a hostage situation you will rejoice when the men and women in blue come and SAVE you. The Brandon Police appear to be fiscally responsible staying under budget last year and making minimal equipment purchases. The city is growing, crime is not going away and chances of a high risk situations occurring therefore will naturally increase.

Very much for branding me an idiot. I have personally been rolled twice by my cows completely unprovoked and lucky to survive it. This was only used to illustrate that lots of different people face extreme risks every day during our jobs and we accept that. My wife doesn’t know if I will come home at the end of each day. I don’t have to resort to insulting anyone! Merry Christmas to you.  
 
Edited by Farmergeorge, 2019-12-21 19:49:48

I'm not taking a stance on this, just dropping this link from a simple quick google search, it's american so may not compare perfectly but kind of eye opening none the less.  
 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/careers/2018/01/09/workplace-fatalities-25-most-dangerous-jobs-america/1002500001/

And for everyone who states that this money should be spent on tackling the root cause of crime. Well, lets really think about what that means.  
 
One measure of preventing crime comes down to having a healthy community and not allowing poor conditions to grow within that community. We need to have strong family supports, adequate housing, access to social programs, access to food and parenting programs that support the local community. NOT A POLICE FUNCTION.  
 
So what is the root cause we need to address? I bet the answer is not so easy to define. Whatever the answer is its not solely on the police to solve. The community at large is responsible, , justice system is responsible, municipal and provincial government is responsible and public interest groups are responsible. The police force is just one cog in the wheel of crime prevention. Supporting other initiatives to solve crime IS important however its not a police function. The money they spent is for policing functions, rightly so. If we want to spend $400,000 on other crime prevention strategies that get to the "root of the problem" we should be soliciting our local government officials to make that happen.

Definition of idiotic  
1. showing complete lack of thought or common sense : FOOLISH  
 
Yes that was what your comparison was, absolutely foolish and lacking any common sense. By no means do i think your an idiot as I dont even know you, but your comparison well thats another story. Your comment lacks understanding of the real risks faced by police officers who actively engage in dangerous situations. I am sure your cattle days can get sketchy and like many folks face risks with their work. I mean we all face the risk of not coming home at the end of the day. Anyone of us could get taken down by a drunk driver or texting driver. None of these comparisons work when talking about what the police do. It does not matter that their job is not the "most dangerous", their job can be the most dangerous and that does matter. Merry Christmas to you too!

No need for name calling, especially if we are looking at the fact that farmers/ranchers are actually statistically at a higher risk than the police are. Can't argue with truth.

400 Gs for a military vehicle for the streets of Brandn? If it gets that bad call in the military themselves if police can't handle the situation! They have tanks!

I get that there are more dangerous jobs than policing. This is not the point! Each industry will take their own measures to ensure the safety of their workforce. In terms of policing this equipment purchase leads to safer police officers when dealing with a high risk situation AKA a bad guy with a gun shooting people or threatening to shoot people. Why is that concept so hard to understand? So because police are number 14 on some list of dangerous jobs they should not be allowed to purchase equipment that makes their jobs more efficient or safer? Heck since their job is so safe lets take away their tasers, guns, batons and unarmed combat training. Heck, its so safe lets just get rid of the police, not needed...you know because its so safe. I am sorry, but this makes no sense! I mean by that logic why do we spend tax dollars on the emergency broadcast system in Brandon ? We never use it, or rarely do for any actual emergency. Just get rid of it what a waste of tax dollars. When an actual emergency happens people will figure it out on their own. Right?

a block away from my home, there was a situation.  
Seen a cop standing behind a trailer parked on the street holding his handgun. Good thing he had something to hide behind, that's not always the case though. Kudos to the police officers who are braver than me and actually go into homes where there is a possibility they could get seriously hurt or worse.

First off I will say that I hope this vehicle is not called on in a way that I would envision it.  
Society is getting a little more dangerous not only because of drugs and gangs but also because people are getting pushed to the point of desperation in some instances.  
Can I see where a vehicle like this could be put to use, I think I can.  
If a person or group of people lose all respect of life, this vehicle would allow for the recovery of an officer that is down, it would also allow for the placement of officers to contain a shooting scene. Anyone who thinks that you just drive an ordinary car into such situations are likely in for a real shock.  
Let’s hope the situation does not arise for this vehicle to be be for what it is intended.

As usual we've taken a thread off the rails, getting back to the original article, there are some good points to this whole program.  
 
For one its funded by proceeds from crime, so atleast it's not another tax hit for everyone, that being said there has been disturbing news articles about people being charged but not convicted of crime but still having their property seized and not returned, hopefully that doesn't happen or is very rare.  
 
I can't fault the police force for wanting something like this, I think in the long run it will probably save a good chunk of change as well as save lives or at least reduce injuries.  
 
Regarding it saving money, think of all those times you see police videos where the officers have to jump curbs or fences getting in close to a barricaded house or scene, those suspension hits are causing damage to normal police cruisers, damage that we the tax base pay for, a vehicle designed for hopping curbs or obstacles should cut down on repair costs I would think.  
 
I just hope there's proper oversight and it only gets used when actually warranted, it will look bad when videos start popping up of it trashing someones front yard responding for a noise complaint lol  
 
And for my final point, it just looks awesome, If I could afford and or legally drive one I'd own one, what kind of weirdo doesn't want to own an APC  
 
Edited by hutchster, 2019-12-21 23:00:02

This was only available due to the proceeds of crime fund. If people didn’t involve themselves in criminal activity this wouldn’t have been possible or necessary.

Till you experience an incident in your community and wait hours for a unit of this nature to be brought in by low bed as the RCMP do hard to judge. We have to many people that have no respect or care for our law enforcement we see that on the news way to often. As they have every excuse for their actions and the courts are very lenient on crime I feel. These situations are happening more and more and it is scary. Spend the money on the cause? We seen recent cuts to health coverage CPAP and other important life saving devices and place more $ on drug related issues so we are spending? Is $400,000 allot of money yes but lets put that in perspective. Same cost a standard no extras fire truck and a fully equipped grader or a snow plow truck and the list goes on. Its not big dollars anymore with rising costs of items. Its one vehicle not a fleet and lets protect those that protect us. Be safe we thank you for your service and hope you never have to use that vehicle.

Tell that to the families of the 130 police officers killed in the line of duty in North America in 2019 and the thousands that have been injured on the job. But hey there’s nothing at all dangerous about the job.  
 
Edited by The_Young_Man, 2019-12-22 09:14:48

It saddens me deeply when people forget.  
 
4 police officers killed in Mayerthorp Alberta in 2005  
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayerthorpe_tragedy  
 
3 police officers shot and killed and 2 officers wounded in Moncton in 2014.  
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moncton_shooting  
 
 
2 police officers killed and 2 others shot by sniper in Fredericton in 2018.  
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredericton_shooting  
 
Moncton has a population just a little larger than Brandon. 5 police officers shot while trying to stop an active shooter. The R.C.M.P. was widely criticized for not having the tools and resources to stop an active shooter.  
 
Right back at ya Zekeland on the nice try.

In addition to being in favor of this vehicle, I would also like to commend the City and Province for buying Canadian. Good job folks.

I have to agree with Tiger Barb. It is a waste of money.

Your posts just made me sad I don't know why some people have zero respect for law enforcement now a days.  
I hope nothing bad ever happens in our city.

Comparing Winnipeg to Brandon  
Winnipeg has a population of 800000  
Brandon maybe 50000  
It will make a nice parade float.

In arguing with whiny liberals

I am far from a "whiny" liberal. In fact based on your comment I would put you in the same gender/age bracket as myself. I still think this vehicle was not money well spent for Brandon. I for one am sick of petty property crime and theft in our city. I like my stuff. It does not belong to someone else for the taking. Most people say that crime fuels the meth problem. So put some more cops on active duty. Active policing to aid citizens in decreasing the issues we have in our city. Instead the BPS saw how nice the toy was in Winnipeg and said we need one too! This will further alienate our police force with a majority of the citizens in this city.

Policing by its nature is a multi-faceted job in which they must put on many different hats depending on what they are doing. For example they could be attending ceremonial duties, patrolling the streets on foot or in their cars, being at schools for presentations and support, attending community events, attending sporting events, enforcing the traffic act, helping save a cat, investigating minor and serious crimes.  
 
Sometimes, when things get really bad they are needed to go kick in doors and save people from really bad guys. This whole idea of police being militarized because they get a armoured vehicle or carry big guns is ridiculous. When police are in the role of door kicking or taking down bad guys, guess what? That usually requires the use of special equipment, guns and tactics. And yes sometimes the gear and tactic are similar to what the military does because it works. Thats how you win in a gun fight!  
 
However, the police have also adopted less lethal tactics that helps preserve life. The military is trained to kill and the police are trained to preserve life. Huge difference.  
 
You cant call the police "militarized" just because of some similar gear to the military. Especially considering their mandates are completely different. The armoured vehicles they have are not equipped with machine guns, or missiles, or any high caliber weapon system. The way the vehicles are deployed are different and the use policy is different. The police will have a strict use of policy for when and how that vehicle is used. They wont be doing traffic stops with it LOL!  
 
We live in a country with strong statutes and social structures that keep things relatively balanced. I dont think we have an issue in this country with our police being too militarized. The equipment they have is a response to the threats they face. Its a sad point for sure that we have this type of crime or violence and the police do a great job at keeping most of it in check.  
 
And for the folks who argue well if things get bad just call in the military. Well, again we have systems in place in this country such, that the military can only be called in during states of emergency and it would take an act of parliament to launch them in any crisis. Now, most high risk situations are dynamic and happen quickly. There would be absolutely no time to call in the military to resolve an active situation. Hence, why the police need armoured vehicles, high powered rifles, helicopters and other "militarized gear". Regular policing equipment wont resolve a high risk situation. NOBODY will win a gun fight if you show up with a spoon! We need to equip our police with the proper equipment so they can be on a level playing field with the bad guys and keep us safe. And overall they are doing a fantastic job at it.

Unfortunately more boots on the ground won't help reduce crime when the sentences that gets handed down by the courts are so weak or even non existent.  
 
I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for front line officers arresting and rearresting the same people over and over again for the same thing only to see them get house arrest or 3 hots and a cot for a month or two..  
 
There are only 2 ways I see that problem ever being solved and neither one is considered politically correct to say out loud, but the fact is this armored car won't reduce crime and I don't think its really designed to, its purpose is to give responding officers more protection than a standard cruiser would, its basically a rolling bullet proof vest.

one thing y'all that are saying this is a waste of money and that money should have been spent on more boots on the ground forget to remember, the simple fact that $400,000.00 is a one time purchase with minimal upkeep as this is not going to be used regularly. This vehicle will be used in high risk occurrences, not just to issue tickets or sit at Tims for morning coffee!! This was basically a free gift from the proceeds of crime and will maybe cost a couple thousand a year to maintain and insure (if that).  
The "boots on the ground" is not a 1 time purchase. The person that said that $400,000.00 would put 4 more pairs of boots on the ground, maybe should lay off the drugs that this vehicle will be used to fight against. Just because the average wage would be between $60,000.00 - $90,000.00 doesn't mean that's all that 1 pair of boots will cost the tax payer. There is uniforms, medical, pension, disability/life insurances, vehicles, boots, training, and the list will go on (as I am not a cop so not sure what else that 1 pair of boots gets every year). Not to mention for every 1 pair of boots, there is probably additional admin costs, may need to promote officers to stay within a "span of control" for each shift.  
So in one year when those 2-3 (tops) pairs of extra boots have used that $400,000.00 then do we just terminate those positions? Or where does that additional $400,000.00 extra per year come from? Oh wait, that officer gets a raise every year as per the collective agreement, they get promoted which costs more money on top of the yearly wage increase....where does all that money come from. So now the 2-3 pairs of boots cause a tax increase of way more than a "free" $400,000.00 to purchase this unit.  
Is this unit a little excessive....maybe, but it might protect the officers from being injured or killed while doing a raid, which is happening way more than most people think or know about. The thing with Police, Fire and EMS is they are a waste of money, until they are needed (just like vehicle/house insurance). Millions of dollars of equipment just sit, until the one time it's needed and then all the people affected are sure glad it's there. I have never needed any of these services more than 4 times in my 40+yrs of existence, but I still pay for all these services. I respect the fact that they ALL need state of the art equipment to do their jobs. Brandon isn't a big city, but considering a couple cities that all funnel into this city made the top 5 list for most violent crime in Canada shows that this is the way this province is going. Our officers need to be protected for long term, because that one time they do get injured will cost us tax payers way more than this unit will.

If the police officers in Moncton, had and utilized an armored vehicle, it may have saved lives and prevented injuries. Moncton RCMP were fighting a heavily armed suspect with just their handguns. The suspect fired on the Mounties who quickly took cover behind their patrol cars. The suspect then snuck around behind them and shot them in the back with a high powered assault rifle.  
Five officers shot, three died.  
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moncton_shooting

In my personal opinion that money could have benefited a lot more people if it was put towards more training for the officers. Training is something that saves lives more than not, and that knowledge would be utilized on a daily bases. A vehicle that might be used once or twice per couple years is not worth it, but proper/superior training would be immediately used every day.  
 
Plus it might also help the unarmed civilians that seem to keep getting shot by [undertrained] officers.....  
 
Proper training helps EVERYONE , this vehicle money could have done more...  
 
Edited by PowerOfaMom, 2019-12-23 17:55:08